After reading many of the postings on this message board I was able to see that many people are not satisfied with the management of Disneyland, including their maintenance and operations procedures. Therefore, my question for the board is do you think that Disneyland continues to be one of the best at customer service, maintenance and park operations; or have competitors like Six Flags or Universal improved their performance enough to beat Disneyland in these areas?
I'm a bit biased here, myself, but I see some other theme park operators making an effort at improving their customer service, while Disneyland seems content to just say "We're Disney, that means we're the best".
As for maintenance, Disneyland still has some of the best maintenance staffing in the business, but they've adopted some less than wonderful ideas on how to run a well kept park.
Cleanliness, well, Disneyland needs to look to some smaller operators in this area, especially Holiday World in Santa Claus, Indiana. Every time I visit there, I think of what Disneyland USED to look like, from a cleanliness standpoint.
"I'm still dancing, dancing while the grim reaper cuts, cuts, cuts but he can't catch me" - No One Lives Forever - Oingo Boingo
There is an intrinsic problem comparing Disneyland directly with Six Flags or Universal. Its the age old comparing of apples and oranges.
Theres the problem of age. Much of the hard infrastructure of Disneyland is almost 50 years old. While much has been done to renew, refurbish, rebuild and replace park attractions ( and much still needs to be done ). Its very tough to keep older attractions going 24/7. Six Flags and Universal are much younger. They may not be suffering from age as DL may be. Disneyland also started as a completely unique concept. Much of the technology was cutting edge for the period and designed as an ongoing work of art and science. ( kind of a home brew crew ). Most of the work at Six Flags and Universal are recasts of existing technology ( DCA anyone? ). A rollercoaster however radical, is still a roller coaster. COTS - commercial off the shelf as we say.
Maintenance and park operations are tough to comment on. We are all waiting for the final report on the BTMRR incident. Unless a person has been an employee of both DL and SF or US, park operations may be an intangible other than personal experiences. So far DL has the edge but things seemed to run smoothly at SF and US when we visited these parks.
And while Tomorrowland has become a shell of its former self, Im Hoping this is a transition period that may prove positive in the long run.
Disneyland has a unique edge that goes beyond just the attractions. The idea of landscaping TL with edible plants is a small contribution missed by most guests in pursuit of the next ride. The walk though Ariels Grotto, the castle changing colors or a ride on the Mark Twain at night are the important minutia that make Disneyland different. To quote an old adage, Its not just about the rides
Customer service? With few exceptions, DL CMs have always been among the best at what they do. I havent felt that at the other parks. This is not meant to say employees at SF and US arent giving good customer service.( as weve had a few very negative experiences at WDW as well, but thats another day. ) On another note and not to reflect upon the SF employees, I resent going to Six Flags due to the metal detectors, their why and what they represent.
While I have commented for the most part positively on Disneyland, I agree it appears to be slowly losing the lead to other theme park venues. Could the original finally lose the Walt in its soul? Only time will tell.
Self reliance is inversely proportional to reliance on the government.
I was at US in SoCal a few weeks ago and was blown away by their staff. Very, very freindly and helpful. at one point I was waiting for the rest of my group and was looking though my map etc and had a worker wander up to me and ask if he could help. I felt like the entire staff was perfect. I did not feel the same way at DL.
True the parks are very different and I prefer DL but I must say that Universal is doing something right in hireing and training their staff.
Disneyland is not that much older than other major theme parks in the area...
Knott's opened before Disneyland.
SeaWorld and Universal (the current Tram Tour) opened in the early 60's.
Six Flags opened in the early 70's.
Universal is not off the shelf, Backdraft and Jurassic Park anyone?
How about Shrek 4-D, using 4 digital projectors, and a 10 track sound system.
And how about the upcoming Revenge of the Mummy....
I am also impressed by the folks who work at Universal, they do a great job....
Check out my photos at http://darkbeer.smugmug.com
Good points. Although the Universal Tram Tour opened way back when, everything else is much newer. I haven't been to Universal since the early 70's. I would find it hard to believe that tour has anything left from the old days. It was awfully cheesey, and not in a good way.Originally posted by Darkbeer
Disneyland is not that much older than other major theme parks in the area...
Knott's opened before Disneyland.
SeaWorld and Universal (the current Tram Tour) opened in the early 60's.
Six Flags opened in the early 70's.
Knott's indeed opened before Disneyland. Back then it was a ghost town that Mr. Knott had relocated from the desert to his berry farm. For many years the most complicated attraction at Knott's was the flume ride; not much to maintain compared to PotC or HM.
I agree that comparing Disneyland Park to other theme parks really isn't fair. Disneyland was, and still is, very unique; even compared to other Disney parks.
The real comparison is not Disneyland against other parks like Six Flags or Universal, its Disneyland against its former self (prior to 1985) and its sister parks in Tokyo. To re-gilt the Walt Disney brand image, Disney must once again stand alone as the Finest in Family Entertainment.
My two cents: Disney has lost what has made it great over the years. Universal definitely has friendlier employees and do just as good of a job, if not better, in the special effects department than Disneyland. However, they do not have as many attractions as Disneyland, but the next decade they could easily pass Disneyland in quality if the current trends continue to hold. I have only heard of one accident occuring at Universal and it was non-fatal. In all my years of going to Universal, I have only witnessed on breakdown (T2:3D) and it was only because a projector blew a bulb.
Six Flags does an excellent job in the thrill genre and provides enough shows to keep people happy. (both Marine World and Magic Mountain) Their employees are just as rude as some of Disney's city hall CMs, but Magic Mountain is a beautiful park and Marine World's animal area makes up for the lack of theming in some parts. Six Flags have had a few accidents, although Marine World's Boomerang accident was Vekoma's fault. I would say Six Flags is now close to equal with Disneyland in terms of maintenance.
Paramount is about equal with Disneyland in maintenance and cleanliness, PGA had a couple deaths on rides that were their fault and BG has been having AA figures freeze up in their market show. (It drives me nuts, why can't they fix them?) Paramount does nothing but make cutbacks on entertainment and quality until they lost a majority of their season pass holders.
Can't comment on Knott's, haven't been there since the year before Cedar Fair took over.
In summary: Disney should take a lesson from the mistakes other have made and try to be more like Universal. Then, maybe we will see the Disneyland of old again.
Eisner and his management group have squandered the most important thing Disneyland launched with, the thing that sustained it for decades through all sorts of ups-and-downs in its infastructure: its overarching showmanship.
Not too many years ago the public excitement about Disneyland was similar to the buzz surrounding Pixar's films, and for similar reasons: the park dispensed pure, undiluted show -- a delicious sense of fun and magic that people took to their hearts. People of all ages, "commoners and kings." From attractions to entertainment to physical layout, the park worked on storytelling, just like a well-crafted film. The collective showmanship of the folks who designed and ran Disneyland was expressed in the various elements that made up the park's operation as surely as an actor, using the elements of his craft, puts a compelling story across to a theater audience.
Today, keeping the park's infastructure fresh is the easy part of running Disneyland. As in Disney's recent animated films. the hard part is getting showmanship out of the world's most useless collection of sharp-pencil boys.
[ Disneyland is not that much older than other major theme parks in the area...
Knott's opened before Disneyland.
SeaWorld and Universal (the current Tram Tour) opened in the early 60's.
Six Flags opened in the early 70's.
Universal is not off the shelf, Backdraft and Jurassic Park anyone?
How about Shrek 4-D, using 4 digital projectors, and a 10 track sound system.
And how about the upcoming Revenge of the Mummy....
I am also impressed by the folks who work at Universal, they do a great job...]
Well, true and yes but no. Again I think its a bit about apples and oranges.
For example, what was the theme content of Knotts in mid 1955. We know Universals venue was its backlot tour in the mid 60s. Six Flags opened in the mid 70s with their first coaster. I also concur, while Backdraft is unique, Jurassic Park is essentially just another COTS water flume ride. Im curious what the 4 in 4-D is about. The ultimate home theater system?
We had a large west coast family reunion ( ages 7 to 70 ) in 2001 that included DL and Knotts. While our day at Knotts was enjoyable - everyone agreed Disneyland was a much better family venue and in much better shape.
As far as the difference between 30 years and 50 years is concerned, to be in as good shape at 50 as 30 takes more time, energy, focus and dedication. Its much easier to just slide into mediocrity and write it off to old age.
[ Today, keeping the park's infastructure fresh is the easy part of running Disneyland. As in Disney's recent animated films. the hard part is getting showmanship out of the world's most useless collection of sharp-pencil boys. ]
Touche brother!
Self reliance is inversely proportional to reliance on the government.
Universal is gaining. Those who have been to Islands of Adventure in Orlando know what I'm talking about. That place is themed to the hilt and does have some unique ride systems that one would have expected Disney to come up with first.
Spiderman is an incredible ride, and even their off the shelf type rides (Jurrasic Park, Dudley Do Right) are all nicely plussed. Theses rides are much more well done than anything at DCA which I think was built around the same time period.
This is kinda OT, but I'll give it a shot anyway.
Newhall Land and Farming Company started SFMM in Valencia in the late 1960's as a land development deal (at the time NLFC was the largest farming and ranching operation in California). They branched out into the property development business, and Magic Mountain was kind of bourne from that. Somewhere in the mid 1970's, NLFC sold off the MM, although they still own all of the land surrounding the park.
As we all know, the amusement park business is highly capital intensive (meaning you have to develop new E tickets all the time to get folks to come back, because they won't if their isn't something new), and NLFC sold off MM because the capital investment required to sustain the returns was better invested in other parts of NLFC land development and farming operations. Indeed, NLFC is now solely a land development company, as it exitied (quite smartly) farming as margins decreased.
What's my point?
Amusement parks, to be successful, need lots of cash and don't provide that great of a return to their owners. They are also a ton of work (read: pain in the butt) compared to other parts of the business (read: media or retailing). Disney is publicly traded, and the management is beholden to the shareholders and maximizing their return, put the shareholders FIRST and everyone else later. It is no supprise to see the DL resort grow, and focus on DL fade - the value proposition for the rest of the resort was better than reinvesting it into the park.
Don't feel special that DL is being singled out. All publicly traded companies do this same trick, with similar discontent that seems to grow year over year.
It's all about the money, and that ain't always good.
An MBA's existance is to extract ever higher levels of profitiblity from ever decreasing revenue streams at the expense of some poor powerless sod. Don't ask me to have a heart, they cut it out a long time ago.
Good reality check. As a Disney shareholder I hope my stock ceases flatlining soon! But I would still encourage them to improve on the park proper.Disney is publicly traded, and the management is beholden to the shareholders and maximizing their return, put the shareholders FIRST and everyone else later. It is no supprise to see the DL resort grow, and focus on DL fade - the value proposition for the rest of the resort was better than reinvesting it into the park.
An interesting article on MLB.COM that might or might not be
applicable:Now, the new owner of the Angels has held ticket prices or reduced them and has one of the lowest payrolls in MLB. Could mangement like this be implemented at DL?Teams also have taken note that the last two World Series winners, Florida and Anaheim, had payrolls of $55 million and $62 million, respectively. Minnesota won the American League Central with a $57 million payroll and AL West Champ Oakland had a payroll of $49 million.
Self reliance is inversely proportional to reliance on the government.
Disneyland has always been, and will always be, my favorite theme park. I've always found it clean, the cast members bright and happy to be there,and helpful.
I think that Six Flaggs, and Great America (in Nor Cal at least) are greatly overrated and over priced. Six Flaggs Marine World has gone downhill since SF took over. The animals aren't being kept in the best of conditions, and the rides don't look particularly safe. I've never seen ANY of them closed for refurbishment, safety checks, etc. As for customer service, it's practically non-existent. We waited in line last month for an HOUR to see a 3D dinosaur adventure. (all signs and displays had my son psyched to see this) When we got in to the theatre, we sat through a 2 minute Sci-Fi cartoon that was a rip-off of STarGate. My six year old was not pleased. I then waited in line at customer service to suggest to management that perhaps they should change the sign, or make announcements to advise that it was NOT a dinosaur movie, and their suggestion was that i write a letter. The "manager"was too lazy to even apologize or write down my complaint, except to say that they'd changed the feature over a year ago! I guess we should have known this via ESP. Glad our last trip was paid for by my husbands employer and not us.
Great America is a dump. When I was last there 15 years ago, it was overrun with punk teenagers and gang bangers, and from what I've heard, it still hasn't regained the right to call itself a "family" park.
Sea World, on the other hand, was a pleasant surprise! We were there in June (after our first trip to Dland this year) and really enjoyed ourselves. The ride operators and park personnel all had that "Disney" quality although the parks are not related. They were all friendly, helpful, and knew a lot about their jobs and the park itself. It was extremely clean and well cared for, the animals were kept in terrific conditions (as good as they could be for animals in captivitiy), and the food concessions offered selections that would rival the River Belle Terrace and Blue Bayou.
I hadn't been there since 1983, although we're at Disneyland every two years, but I'd like to go again on our next trip down south.
As for California Adventure...I like the Grizzly River Run, the Redwood Rec are, Soarin',and Hollywood pictures backlot. The rest of it - no big deal at all. I was very disappointed - I think they should have taken more time to plan it, spent more money, and make it more "Disney", put the imagineers on it instead whoever they hired to design it. Not enough time, energy, or talent went into it. And in most areas of that park, the cast members don't have that sparkle and interest that DL's cast members have. We only spent 3 hours there last week, and 1 day in June out of four, and stayed with the rest of the crowds in the Magic Kingdom.
Stacie L.
No California
In theory, yes. Those who've experienced WDC first hand, however, have seen that the suits put themselves and their salaries first, and everyone and everything else a distant second.Disney is publicly traded, and the management is beholden to the shareholders and maximizing their return, put the shareholders FIRST and everyone else later.
One could easily produce another animated feature with the money wasted every three years by incompetent studio management (the biggest joke in town is the fans calling the sequels "cheapquels" -- they're incredibly not-cheap!). One could easily keep Disneyland in E-ticket rides and name entertainment by staunching the hemorrhage of cash sucked from DL by WDC's own rapacious, narcissistic management.
That's consistent with Anheiser Busch Parks (I'm pretty sure they own Sea World) and reminds me what a good job they do in Williamsburg. Busch Gardens Williamsburg is an awesome park. It's always clean and features beautiful landscaping. It's cut in among large trees, which sure is nice on hot days. The park installs a major attraction every other year and a minor attraction every other year.Originally posted by Mickeyfan3
Sea World, on the other hand, was a pleasant surprise! We were there in June (after our first trip to Dland this year) and really enjoyed ourselves. The ride operators and park personnel all had that "Disney" quality although the parks are not related. They were all friendly, helpful, and knew a lot about their jobs and the park itself. It was extremely clean and well cared for, the animals were kept in terrific conditions (as good as they could be for animals in captivitiy), and the food concessions offered selections that would rival the River Belle Terrace and Blue Bayou.
Granted, at BGW an outdoor roller coaster is considered a major attraction and does not require the investment of a traditional, Disney E-Ticket. Nonetheless, Busch has not cut back on maintenance or investment like Disneyland has. The result is a very safe, clean, and popular theme park. (I heard there was some kind of crime incident in the park last summer, but it's the only one I'm aware of).
Total hogwash. Every publicly traded company is like that now, and even some privately held ones. To single out Disney is patently unfair.Originally posted by Mr. Wiggins
In theory, yes. Those who've experienced WDC first hand, however, have seen that the suits put themselves and their salaries first, and everyone and everything else a distant second.
Starting in the 'Corporate Raider' era of the 1980's, executive compensation started to esclate at an alarming rate. The pressure on these executives also esclated accordingly. If you had zero job security (no middle executive is safe), wouldn't you pad it up as much as you could for as long as you could?
Further, if the shareholders (mostly institiutional investors, who have a lot of clout) didn't approve of the value proposition they were getting from managment (read that: bloated salaries in exchange for whatever performance they are looking for from said company) the executives are quickly escorted out.
On a personal note - you couldn't pay me enough to take one of those top level jobs in the corporate world - but I completely understand why those folks who do them. Some peoples souls really are for sale.No doubt some of them work for Disney, others work for (insert your favorite corporation here).
It's like this for me:
1. I have a premium AP.
2. I work in Orange.
3. I enjoy the bejeebus out of the park, in short spurts, several times a month. Mostly, I enjoy going back to see what changed from week to week.
4. I understand the corporate side of it, maybe too well.
5. I am continously amazed that the park looks as good as it does given the ammount of use it sees, and the immense pressure its managers have on them to make revenues and hold back expenses.
6. In the end, it'll all work out.
Anyway, I've seen worse. Lots worse. You'll have to trust me on that one.
An MBA's existance is to extract ever higher levels of profitiblity from ever decreasing revenue streams at the expense of some poor powerless sod. Don't ask me to have a heart, they cut it out a long time ago.
Probablly fair.Originally posted by Mickeyfan3
I think that Six Flaggs, and Great America (in Nor Cal at least) are greatly overrated and over priced.
Magic Mountain is a nice park, but has tons of competiton from other parks in SoCal. It gets a lot of attention because it needs it to keep attendance up.
Great America was supposed to get bulldozed in the 1980's for some new computer company's 'campus style headquarters' but apparently somebody figured out it was the only show in town, and was a real winner (from a profitablilty standpoint) in so far as amusement parks go because of a combination of low competition (read that: low investment in new attractions) and a captive audience.
I mean, where else you gonna go in Norcal? Casa De Fruita? They get Garlic World open in Gilroy yet?
An MBA's existance is to extract ever higher levels of profitiblity from ever decreasing revenue streams at the expense of some poor powerless sod. Don't ask me to have a heart, they cut it out a long time ago.
"I mean, where else you gonna go in Norcal? Casa De Fruita? They get Garlic World open in Gilroy yet?"
That's just it. We're happy to NOT visit Great America at all. We used to like Marine World, but it's become a depressing place to visit since Six Flaggs took over. They are just not a young family or animal oriented company and had no business coming in there.
We're more than happy to visit Disneyland every couple of years instead, sometimes more often than that.
Stacie L.
No California
Actually, Gilroy is currently home to Bonfante Gardens, Paramount's other park in NorCal, which I would consider easily to be the best, most beautiful theme park in Northern California. Ironically, since you mention Garlic, they have a spinner ride (similar to Francis Ladybug Boogie at DCA) called Garlic Twirl that is shaped like garlic bulbs. You can even smell the scent of Garlic in the air while you ride! Also, the 2nd drop on their Quicksilver mine train ride makes Big Thunder seem tame! Give this park a try some time.Originally posted by CraigMBA
I mean, where else you gonna go in Norcal? Casa De Fruita? They get Garlic World open in Gilroy yet?
We've thought about trying Bonfante a couple of times, but it's not open year round and it gets so hot in that area in the summer time. And, we don't know anyone that's been. I heard the gardens are pretty, maybe next summer. I didin't know Paramount took it over. I know they closed the first year early due to financial shortages.
As for the garlic bulb ride being similar to the Francis Lady bug ride at DCA....I hope it's better. I was really disappointed with that area of DCA as well.
Stacie L.
No California
Actually, the park had a season until the second week of November this year and just closed last week. It will reopen mid-March. Garlic Twirl seems slightly faster than DCA's ladybug ride. The heat is usually not a problem at this park because it is blanketed in trees and there is more shade at this park than any other park. Also, there is a platform where you can walk in back of a waterfall which sprays you with water. Even though the park is now under Paramount management, Michael Bonfante is still on the board of directors.Originally posted by Mickeyfan3
We've thought about trying Bonfante a couple of times, but it's not open year round and it gets so hot in that area in the summer time. And, we don't know anyone that's been. I heard the gardens are pretty, maybe next summer. I didin't know Paramount took it over. I know they closed the first year early due to financial shortages.
As for the garlic bulb ride being similar to the Francis Lady bug ride at DCA....I hope it's better. I was really disappointed with that area of DCA as well.
Stacie L.
Now you know someone who has been to Bonfante Gardens, me. Worth every cent. If you are looking for family, young family, it doesn't get any better. BF is perfect for young children and the atmosphere is very relaxing and soothing, a really nice theme park departure. If you have older kids, they'll probably be a little bored.
PGA has been completely revamped. Yes, the thugs have been driven away. I was pretty bummed out at the direction that the park had been taking, but it has had some major cosmetic surgery. Shockingly, so. I believe that mgmt didn't think they could compete with SFMW for coasters so they have gone all out with becoming family friendly. This at a cost, though. They have taken out two more coasters for more family friendly attractions. The Tidal Wave, my all time favorite theme park ride, (beating out all others).....is gone.
So, if you are really looking for family friendly, complain no more, it's in your own backyard
averagecuppajoe@yahoo.com
Did they take out the flying coaster, too (the one where you're strapped in on your back so every time the rollercoaster flips upside down you're facing forward and down as if you're flying)?
The whole waterpark inside a theme park idea is pretty cool, too. However, I won't even begin to think of how much it will cost to enter the park now.
"To all who come to this happy place, welcome!"
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Yes, they removed Stealth, and it will reopen at Paramount's Carowinds.Originally posted by MrTomMorrow
Did they take out the flying coaster, too (the one where you're strapped in on your back so every time the rollercoaster flips upside down you're facing forward and down as if you're flying)?It won't cost anymore than normal.
The whole waterpark inside a theme park idea is pretty cool, too. However, I won't even begin to think of how much it will cost to enter the park now.
"I'm still dancing, dancing while the grim reaper cuts, cuts, cuts but he can't catch me" - No One Lives Forever - Oingo Boingo
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