A new MiceAge article--let the debate begin!

[ZipadeedooDave]

I really think if they were going to cancel passes, it wouldn't be a good thing. Besides, my wife and I are planning to buy some for some family members for Christmas....they will be the "So-Cal Pass", but we are buying 6 of them, so it adds up. I think they'll be happy with that.
So, I hope I get my bonus right away, so I can go and get them....what happy parents, brother, sister and their spouses we my wife and I will have!!

[fairytalelover]

Originally posted by cemeinke
Eh, considering this was in response to the MiceAge article and a thread was started 4 days ago on the 9th, I thought it was recent enough to direct Zip over there, since it still seemed rather active.

No ill will intended, I figured a moderator might eventually combine the threads

Sorry I misunderstood and assumed that this was like the general AP thread we had a few months back.

About the APs. I think they are great! I have one and I love it. As for Disney making money off of AP holders. Well, I don't know about the rest of you but GWS and I spend a great deal of money every time we go there. This weekend that we were there, we ate 3 times a day times 2 days, we bought the Nightmare Before Xmas special edition trading pins, we bought some Xmas decorations, I bought this adorable Minnie and Mickey Xmas pajamas, a cute Mickey shirt, beverages throughout the days, a Jack Skellington santa hat for GWS to wear at work during Xmas etc.............
Point being, that when we have an AP we still spend so much money on other things that Disney still makes a great deal of money on us. In addition, due to the fact that we can go whenever we want for free, we go all the time and figure we have more money to spend since we don't have to buy tickets. Disney gets a lot of business and money out of us due to the APs.

[ZipadeedooDave]

No problems.
I just didn't hunt for this thread originally....so I just started my own.
If someone wants to combine, more power to them!
~

[fairytalelover]

Originally posted by ZipadeedooDave
No problems.
I just didn't hunt for this thread originally....so I just started my own.
If someone wants to combine, more power to them!
~

Sorry, I was going to put my views in a separate post but decided to edit and just add it to what I posted above. Then I realized you may not notice it......Ugh!!! Anyway, it's up there!

[Pirate Girl]

I thought they did stop the passes when DCA opened. Because they brought them back to keep from going bankrupt. I hope they don't stop them again, because I love my AP. For the amount of time I spend at Disneyland, not having and AP would be foolish. It pays for itself after like 3 trips. Plus, the discounts and hotel offers ect. are great. Hooray for AP's!

[ZipadeedooDave]

I agree with your "HOORAY" statement.

I do recall when they 'halted' AP's for a time, it was more of a freeze.....and I guess in time, they would "thaw them out' and resume the sale of the AP's. I had some friends that were all bummed during that time because they wanted to renew and couldn't....their passes expired and they didn't renew right away....and it just got too long and they were part of the freeze.

[disneyboy7]

Disneyland will change with the times as everything else does because Walt Disney is gone. It was a dream he was able to live. Does current "management" spend time in the park riding attractions and talking to guests?? I really don't know. But Walt did.
I work for a company that started out of a garage by a former Aerojet employee. He decided to offer billing and financial information for the growing Cable TV market. THe company took off and grew nationwide. There were many perks and bonuses given out. Robert J. Mathews, the former Aerojet employee, made money hand over fist and put it back into his company. In 1987 he died of prostate cancer. The magic began to decline after that.
My company has been restructered, expanded, contracted, sold and resold. We are now based out of Kansas CIty, not California, and have 10,000 employees.
Magic costs money. Disney needs to spend money to make money. They could cut down on some animated movies and re-direct funds. In my opinion they are satisfied with the quality of the park as it is.
I'm going to buy my first annual passport and enjoy it as it is. I'm going next week and in January for my birthday and in May for TOT and in the summer for pin trading.

[daveinMN]

Originally posted by 9oldmen
I asked this before, but how crowded did it get before there where Annual Passes? I know that in August of 1969 there was a day when attendance reached over 82,000. (The Haunted Mansion finally opened, and Pirates would have only been 2 years old). When Space Mountain opened in 1977, the line snaked down Main Street. What was the annual attendance for, say, 2002, compared to 1980 (the year of the silver anniversary, and I think, one of the last years before APs where offered)?

(The high attendance in the pre AP years was probably due to those new attractions, and not to 500,000 people having easy, repeat access to the park, although management will probably claim that attendance was higher then due to the economy being stronger, to strengthen their argument against spending money on new attractions.)

You must also consider that it only cost around $10 or less in 1977 to get into the park. You paid per ride, with the good ole ticket books.

The rest of this post is NOT aimed at the guy I just quoted

One thing I don't understand here is the poeple that are saying that they aren't paying enough. Okay, you can pay more. Just give them more money, and then you won't be taking away from MY or anyone else's experience at the park, and you will be able to feel you have given enough. $1000 for an AP for you, while the rest of us who feel we are getting our money's worth will keep paying the current price. Do you send the IRS more money at the end of the year because you feel you didn't pay enough taxes? Maybe you could pay triple the gasoline tax the next time you fill up, too? Gas at $6 a gallon would keep more people off the road, too.

My point is that the WD company has deteremined that the current price covers their expenses. They still make a great profit on you, one way or another.

There has been some misinformation posted here too. An annual pass in 1985, the first year of an AP being offered, was $99. They did have a $50 pass that had tons of blackout dates, but they mostly went to the teenagers going to Videopolis. I had my annual pass from 1985 till 1993. For the first 4 years I went almost every day. I only missed 10 days combined for the first year. It was a great value. It still is.

Dave

[EandCDad]

Originally posted by fairytalelover
I thought we were not supposed to do this to new people anymore.

Correct me if I am wrong, but very recently it was discussed that when a new person brings up a subject that was discussed a while ago ( and the AP thread was quite a while ago) that we shouldn't keep telling them to go back to the old thread and we should let them start a new one.

I know that the specific reason for cemeinke linking to the other thread (which is now this thread) was covered, I do want to point out that this is a bit of a mischaracterization of what the moderators have requested that people do.

Here's the comment from open letter from the Moderators:

If you are in a helpful mood, point them to the previous discussion, or show them where to find the information. If you're not in a mood to be helpfuland we all have those daysjust let it go. But comments like "look it up yourself" and "don't you know how to use a search button?" are rude, and really turn people away.

Note, that doesn't say that we "shouldn't keep telling them to go back to the old thread." What is says that cemeinke should have done exactly what he did, politely link to the old thread. Even if he was linking to an old AP thread. Pointing out old threads is not rude and it's not something that "we" should stop doing. If you add "you jackass" to the end, that's rude and "we" should not be doing that. If you can't tell the difference, report the post to a moderator and let them deal with it.

[adriennek]

Originally posted by EandCDad
Pointing out old threads is not rude and it's not something that "we" should stop doing. If you add "you jackass" to the end, that's rude and "we" should not be doing that. If you can't tell the difference, report the post to a moderator and let them deal with it.

In an official moderator position, I just wanted to quote this part here. If you have a question about whether someone's post is inappropriate, please contact a moderator privately. "Report this post" is a very convenient way to do this, although PM or e-mail works also.

Adrienne

[DisneyFan25863]

Sorry if this was already covered, didn't want to shift though this thread...

Doing away with the AP program would pretty much elimate MousePlanet, as well as the other Disney sites, wouldn't it? I mean, it would probably mean WAY less updates, and no MouseAdventure. I mean, At nearly $50 a day, who would pay to orginize these things? It's just too expensive

[TerryTiger]

I don't think Disneyland will do away with APs. Recently, the Southern California Annual Passport was added back to the ticket booth signs. I would guess that AP sales went way down when the cheap AP was not advertised and that must be something that was affecting the bottom line so now its back. Anyway, just my observation.

[sediment]

With so many AP holders in the park spending money at restaurants and shops, it's no wonder that these places are better maintained than, say, attractions, which are supposed to attract paid admissions to the park. PP saw this, and went with it.

I prefer no annual passes, a drop in admissions prices, and some better off-season bargains. My employee club gets a whopping $8 off. Wow, and extra Coke or two during the day. I can recall half-price employee club days. That's when we'd go. Not the middle of summer, not holiday season, but February or September.
APs create a short-term positive cash flow (people pay for admissions before actually going), but the promise of getting what you pay for (I think: clean park, well-maintained, open rides and attractions) never needs to be fulfilled. Management doesn't have to work to get people in to DL (and DCA, in theory). It only has to find ways to get money out of your wallet after you get in. Thus the restaurants and shops.

Only by forcing Management to work at getting people into the park will Disneyland (and DCA, in theory) get better rides and attractions. This is why WDW keeps getting attractions (that and the wealth of land), while DL gets cheapened versions of successful rides.

If not a full dismantling of APs, I would suggest to Disney to drop the premium passes without the blackout dates, and only sell SoCal passes, with more blackout dates. Fill the park during the off-season with APs, I say.

Otherwise, it's up to AP holders themselves to rethink their renewal. Perhaps delay it longer than they normally do. When the AP holders don't renew, perhaps Disney would then get the message to put something better in the park to bring back the big, upfront bucks.

Whenever a customer pays for a product or service ahead of time, the need to satisfy the customer diminishes. Think: required tips at restaurants (for large parties), health club memberships, APs.

[Pirate Girl]

Originally posted by sediment
If not a full dismantling of APs, I would suggest to Disney to drop the premium passes without the blackout dates, and only sell SoCal passes, with more blackout dates. Fill the park during the off-season with APs, I say.

Whoa, chill dude! As it is, many AP holders do go mostly during the off season. For those of us that go to Disneyland Monthly, Weekly, Daily, whatever, it is simply foolish to do anything other than buy an AP. And if Disneyland did away with AP's they would loses a LOT of business. I know that no matter how many times I have gone in the past I still buy the same about of food, gifts, gags, and junk every time I go. And I know this is true for many passholders. Getting rid of AP's would be a bad idea.

[ZipadeedooDave]

I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH YOU.
Doing away with AP's would be VERY unwise.

[sediment]

So, 100th, you agree with me? SoCal Passes only allowed? Because I've read that these would be dropped instead of the Premier, which overfill the park on days that are already filled.

That's my second choice, after eliminating all APs. I know it won't happen, but the park would be better off (even if Disney Stock might suffer a bit).

Disney is already thanking you for spending more money on everything except admission, by filling the aisles with stuff to buy and food to stuff yourself with, instead of great new rides and attractions that you'd want to go on over and over. Heck, why should Disney do that, because whenever you're on a ride, you're not buying something profitable to Disney.

[Not Afraid]

Originally posted by sediment
So, 100th, you agree with me? SoCal Passes only allowed? Because I've read that these would be dropped instead of the Premier, which overfill the park on days that are already filled.

As a PAP, I usually avoid at all costs days that are already filled - with the exception of an occasional holiday. What I do enjoy is being able go go whenever I want to to go to a store or have some ice cream. I won't stand in lone lines anyways, so I don't reallt effect the ride queues.

[LifelongAngelsFan]

Seems that Disney can easily figure out how much money the average AP holder spends per year. The fact that they continue selling them tells me that they know the incremental revenue exceeds the incremental costs from AP holder attendance.

[ZipadeedooDave]

Originally posted by Not Afraid
As a PAP, I usually avoid at all costs days that are already filled - with the exception of an occasional holiday. What I do enjoy is being able go go whenever I want to to go to a store or have some ice cream. I won't stand in lone lines anyways, so I don't reallt effect the ride queues.

I agree. My wife and I went last Friday Night and had dinner at Plaza Inn and got on a relaxing little trek on the "Casey Junior". We'd not been on it in years, and thought it would be fun! Nope, we avoided the cages --- hahaah.

From there, we just took a little walk....stolled through the park...it was nice....we stopped in some stores along the way, and it made for a very nice, relaxing Friday Night.

This is what many many AP holders do. My wife and I are PAP's, to quote you, NOT AFRAID. We've been PAP's for several years....and we see our Disneyland Resort Premium Annual Passes as INVESTMENTS. We invest in time together, and what a sweet investment it is. It's not an expenditure, but once a year...and we save for it...or pay for it with a bonus, or so forth.

Being able to have Disneyland/DCA whenever you want it is a treasure.....and I don't have this "entitled" idea that seems to float around....maybe some feel that way, but I don't.

Having an AP let's me take the parks in stride and enjoy every remnant of them.....from Bread Tours in DCA to sitting for 1hr/45minutes in front of the castle for July 4, 2001 Fireworks.....having an AP, we can do things like that and not feel like we're getting ripped off, because we can come again.

Long Live the AP.
HAAHHA....

[efoxx]

some thought I had on the AP "problem".

1. Eliminating the ap's is not going to do what Kevin Yee thinks it will because Disney is absoulutly paranoid about attendance figures. if attendance drops then Disney's reaction is to cut jobs and reduce hours. droping the APs, or raising the price to significantly reduce the number of APs will cause Disney to decide to reduce hours at the parks.

2. Disney sells the AP's for the same reason the airlines offer super discounted tickets. that is to fill up space that otherwise would be empty. example, if the park on an average day can handle 30,000 people, and full price ticket sales are expected to only pull in 20,000 then, the theory goes, it is better to fill up the other 10,000 with reduced cost tickets. in other words getting some money is better then having empty seats.

3. unless every current AP holder returns for the equivalent number of visits that they paid for in the ap price, then Disney will see a drop in their revenue causing managment to once again cut jobs and reduce hours.

4. raising ap prices will in fact raise the per ap guest/complaints ratio. if you are paying $1000 for an ap then you will demand your moneys worth.

5. reduced crowds means more per guest cost. Disney sets it's hours and it's ticket prices around the concept that you will only be able to ride a certain number of rides in a given day. if the average right now is 7 rides per visit, and then it goes to 9 then Disney suffers reduced per guests revenue.

6. this point if more towards those that would say that raising prices will do good. Disney opens new rides (in theory not practice) based on park capacity. no new rides would be planned for a very long time if the park was below capacity for any reason.
just some random thoughts

[Pirate Girl]

Originally posted by sediment
So, 100th, you agree with me? SoCal Passes only allowed? Because I've read that these would be dropped instead of the Premier, which overfill the park on days that are already filled.

No, quite the opposite. I'm saying that discontinuing the Premier Pass would not help the park crowds. And it would mean that AP holder couldn't get in at Christmastime ect to see all the special decorations, because all of December is blocked off unless you have a premier pass.

[Pirate Girl]

Originally posted by ZipadeedooDave
I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH YOU.
Doing away with AP's would be VERY unwise.

Long Live AP's!

Good thing there is little chance of Disney discontinuing AP's because of the steady revenue they bring in.

[kawfeadikt]

APs, I think, do not cater to young families.

My wife and I have had passes for a number of years, in excess of five (I think). Although we enjoy going as often as our schedules and desire permit, our son turns three at the end of this month, which means we have to purchase a pass for him very soon.

I've noted that there are no price differences for children in the AP program; so that means I have to drop another $225 so that our entire family can go as often as we would like. The situation gets worse when my daughter and daughter-to-be-born come of age. That's 5 x $225 = $1100 for the family--at today's prices. I find it difficult to justify that much money for a young family. It will make more sense later in life when the children are a bit older, but, c'mon. . .full price for a 3 year old?

Now, perhaps if your only venue of entertainment is Disney, $1100 a year is ok, but for that same $1100 one can buy:

• 36" Sony WEGA flat screen TV at Best Buy
• One fairly nice out of the box home theater system if you already have a TV
• 55 DVDs if you already have a home theater (@ $20 per)
• 146 movie tickets (@7.50 per) ~ 29 outings at the movies if you don't to watch movies at home
• one helluva backyard playground setup (~$600 for nice ones) AND a trampoline (~$300 for the most expensive) if you don't like movies
• one half of the max contribution ($2000) of an Educational IRA if you think you want to send a kid to college

In fact, one could go to Disneyland once a year on our birthday's (like most of us did when we were small), spend $300 for the family of five and still have over $800 left over for other entertainment options.

Yah, I know: the local cineplex isn't like watching Fantasmic and playing in your backyard isn't like playing at Disneyland. All that is being said is that in a marketplace where (for most people) money is scarce and hard earned, hard decisions have to be made where entertainment dollars are spent.

I'm as much a freak about Disney as the next guy (as evidenced by my presence here), but it is becoming harder and harder to justify spending that much money in one area. Perhaps this is simply a lonely tale from the intersection of Supply Street and Demand Drive.

[EandCDad]

Originally posted by 100thGrimGrinningGhost
And it would mean that AP holder couldn't get in at Christmastime ect to see all the special decorations, because all of December is blocked off unless you have a premier pass.

Uhhhhh.....not exactly. Until this year I've always had a So. Cal. AP and I've always seen the decorations multiple times. The decorations and other Christmas events usually start in early November and they only block out Saturday's and Thanksgiving day and the Friday after Thanksgiving. In December, a So. Cal. AP can go until the 19th except for on Saturday.

A Delux AP can go all of Nov and Dec except three days in Nov and Dec 24-31.

[Mr. Wiggins]

>>...in a marketplace where (for most people) money is scarce and hard earned, hard decisions have to be made where entertainment dollars are spent.<<

A good point -- as true in 1955 as 2003. In fact there's never been a time when, for the vast majority of Disneyland's guests, it hasn't been true.

What is different now is that the Disney company has lowered the bar on Disneyland, to the point where the perceived difference in entertainment value between it and other regional entertainment venues is enormously less than it was, say, pre-1995.

Investing neither the vision, passion nor cash to keep Disneyland a truly flagship theme park, the company has strip mined the "The Park That Walt Built" for every dollar, meanwhile adding little that is noteworthy and diminishing much.

Paralleling the company's long-held view that "Walt-Built" is strictly for the Wal-Mart crowd, Disneyland is financed and managed as a second-tier property. As such, it is marketed with standard high-volume discounting techniques, one of which is the Annual Passport program.