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Thread: Solving Disneyland’s Annual Passholder, Attendance and Food Problems

  1. #26
    Fun is wherever you find it... olegc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cstephens View Post
    I also think many people are erroneously assuming that "AP holder" and "out-of-town tourist" are mutually exclusive. Just because you have an AP, even a premium AP, doesn't mean you live in the Southern California area, just as people who don't live in Florida can also have WDW APs.
    you and tinkermommy have it right. Too often folks who claim to have inside info or the right analysis talk about AP holders with much disdain - and I think it's more about them getting eyeballs on their website than really knowing what's going on.

    and to those who say Disney should lower prices and get rid of APs - keep dreaming. That revenue monster won't go away any time soon. It's like those announcements at ball games - where it says "sold out" but only half the stadium is filled. they don't care, as long as the tickets are sold.
    "[Disneyland] has that thing - the imagination, and the feeling of happy excitement - I knew when I was a kid." - Walt Disney

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  3. #27

    Thank you, Joe Cool, for very insightful, thoughtful suggestions. You address some very serious problems that have been diluting the Disneyland experience in an increasing manner.

    I have been visiting DL multiple times each year since the first week the Park opened in 1955 - when I was 10. In recent years, I have watched with growing alarm as the happy experiences vanish beneath the weight of the huge crowds. This year has been the worst. We have read about it here on this Discussion Board, as well as experienced it first-hand. I worry that if this growth in attendance continues unabated, future generations of DL attendees will never know how special a place it once was.

    I, too, am a shareholder. I want a decent return on my investment. But I also want a good experience each time I go to the Park. You have shown that the two can be compatible.


  4. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Rkkm View Post
    Thank you, Joe Cool, for very insightful, thoughtful suggestions. You address some very serious problems that have been diluting the Disneyland experience in an increasing manner.

    I have been visiting DL multiple times each year since the first week the Park opened in 1955 - when I was 10. In recent years, I have watched with growing alarm as the happy experiences vanish beneath the weight of the huge crowds. This year has been the worst. We have read about it here on this Discussion Board, as well as experienced it first-hand. I worry that if this growth in attendance continues unabated, future generations of DL attendees will never know how special a place it once was.

    I, too, am a shareholder. I want a decent return on my investment. But I also want a good experience each time I go to the Park. You have shown that the two can be compatible.
    Thank you for your comments as well. I suspect that Disneyland will make some changes soon. With the World of Color premering in 2010, crowds will obviously be inevitable.


    Instead of eliminating the SO CAL and So CAL Select passes, maybe Disney could go back to what it did in the 80s and have a Seasonal Pass from September through May, Sunday through Friday with blackout dates around holidays. Right now, So Cal passes do have some access in the summer - during early June and late August.

    The monthly payment option for passholders is fine but only Southern California residents can use them. The option should exist for all. In today's electronic and internet age, every consumer should have the option. When I got my Premium Pass in September, I can to pay in full after my credit for my 7 day hopper was allowed. I live on the East Coast.

  5. #29
    Registered User houseofmouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rkkm View Post

    I have been visiting DL multiple times each year since the first week the Park opened in 1955 - when I was 10. In recent years, I have watched with growing alarm as the happy experiences vanish beneath the weight of the huge crowds. This year has been the worst. We have read about it here on this Discussion Board, as well as experienced it first-hand. I worry that if this growth in attendance continues unabated, future generations of DL attendees will never know how special a place it once was.
    Okay this is a bothersome quote: you can't have a good time with crowds? Really? Your trip should be what you make of it, who you spend it with and how you plan it out. I went many times this summer, crowded days but I never once felt my experience was diminished by large or med sized crowds. Do some research about when the most crowded days are and then don't go if this is how you feel. I have enjoyed each and every day I have been.
    Prices rise and people keep paying, not everyone who visits is a passholder.
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  6. #30

    Small defense for So Cal pass holders. My husband used to just go for dinner and maybe one ride then go home, he did that frequently so he was not adding to the crowd but spent quite a bit of money. Now we are not in the area as often and spending is a lot tighter so if we do go now it is more of a budget trip. We also stay on property at the GCH at least once a year just because I like it. And I do admit I am not so big on souvenirs but I do buy pins (lots of them, too many really). So I really think So Cal AP holders get a lot of flack for not holding our own when I think most of us really do. And yes the economy is still down people are to going to spend as much weather they be AP holders or day pass carriers.
    There may be problems but Disney does seem to like my money and I would not give it to them with out the So Cal pass. I cannot fix the problems at DL but I am not the one getting paid to do it either, and I do not have all the figures needed to make those kinds of decisions. There is a lot to consider and Disney is not going to just send out that info hoping a fan is smart enough to make it all better.


  7. #31
    CL--DLR Trip Planning and DVC Toocherie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cstephens View Post
    I also think many people are erroneously assuming that "AP holder" and "out-of-town tourist" are mutually exclusive. Just because you have an AP, even a premium AP, doesn't mean you live in the Southern California area, just as people who don't live in Florida can also have WDW APs.
    Yup--I have a WDW pass even though I live in SoCal; I have friends that live in Texas and British Columbia that have DL APs.
    "Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

  8. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by olegc View Post
    It would be VERY interesting to get a real rundown of figures on a detailed level, and not simply opinions dressed in general statements. obviously the DIsney company won't release those numbers to the public - that would impact them too severely with their competition. HOwever, I think a lot of AP holders buy more than people think and a lot of day visitors buy less - maybe not a lot less but they don't "stock up"...



    I thought I would do a little revenue analysis.

    Based on the following:


    Premium $429.00
    Deluxe $289.00
    Southern California $194.00
    Southern California Select $144.00

    Let's assume that there are 800,000 Annual Passholders with a breakdown
    of 600,000 passholders that own SO Ca or So Cal Select and 200,000 passholders that either have a Premium or Deluxe Pass.

    Based on the above figures and allowing for maximum revenue, let's for simplicity, assume that 600,000 passholders have the more expensive So Cal pass and the remaining 200,000 passholders have the most expensive pass the Premium Pass

    Revenue for one year:

    600,000 So Cal Passes: $116.4M
    200,000 Premium Passes: $85.8M

    Total: $202.2M

    If DIsney eliminated the AP program, there would a net loss of $202.2M for Disneyland. In order to make up the loss and with $72 a ticket for DIsneyland one day pass, 2,808,000 tickets would need to be sold.

    If the AP program was modified, and just had a Premium and Deluxe pass available (SO Cal and SO Cal Select passes eliminated) and let's say only 200,000 prior So Cal passholders upgraded to a Premium Pass, the revenue would look like:

    200,000 Premium Passes (former So Cal passholders): $85.8M
    200,000 Premium Passes - Existing prior to AP Change: $85.8M
    Total: $171.6M

    This would be a loss of $30.6M if the SO CAL and SO Cal Select passes were eliminiated and the AP rolls would be reduced from 800,000 to 400,000.

    Out of town tourists needed to make up the $30.6M shortfall based on $72 one day pass: 425,000 tourists.

    Disneyland achieves the same revenue but the demographics change.

  9. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by houseofmouse View Post
    Okay this is a bothersome quote: you can't have a good time with crowds? Really? Your trip should be what you make of it, who you spend it with and how you plan it out. I went many times this summer, crowded days but I never once felt my experience was diminished by large or med sized crowds. Do some research about when the most crowded days are and then don't go if this is how you feel. I have enjoyed each and every day I have been.
    Prices rise and people keep paying, not everyone who visits is a passholder.
    Crowds in which I can't walk in a straight line, am buffeted about by passers-by, am bumped and knocked by cameras, et cetera, because there isn't enough space between people, in which my feet are bumped and run over by strollers because of a lack of space to manuever them, in which my friends and family have to walk one in front of the other, single-file, are not fun. Having to sit on cement for several hours to see a parade or a show is not fun. And worst of all, no longer being able to have spur of the moment visits any time we want because of crowding and possible closure is no fun.

    Since I joined this Discussion Board a couple of years ago, it has has been rife with stories and complaints about crowds. There is a continuing topic on when to go to miss the crowds. Posters worry incessantly as to what kind of crowd to expect on their visits. Crowded conditions are a real threat.

    Again, I fear that Disneyland as a happy, fun place is disappearing under the crush of the visitors.

  10. #34
    Registered User houseofmouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rkkm View Post
    Crowds in which I can't walk in a straight line, am buffeted about by passers-by, am bumped and knocked by cameras, et cetera, because there isn't enough space between people, in which my feet are bumped and run over by strollers because of a lack of space to manuever them, in which my friends and family have to walk one in front of the other, single-file, are not fun. Having to sit on cement for several hours to see a parade or a show is not fun. And worst of all, no longer being able to have spur of the moment visits any time we want because of crowding and possible closure is no fun.
    Sad. I have been when packed, really but when were you there that it was bumper to bumper throughout the whole park?? I am thinking those days are not many. It is not like it is like that 365 days a week. I still say planning plays a huge park in personal success in the park. I still am not sure what you want to have happen? Not that it matters, Disney will do what it wants to ensure a profit.
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  11. #35
    Fun is wherever you find it... olegc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeCool View Post
    I thought I would do a little revenue analysis.
    ......
    This would be a loss of $30.6M if the SO CAL and SO Cal Select passes were eliminiated and the AP rolls would be reduced from 800,000 to 400,000.

    Out of town tourists needed to make up the $30.6M shortfall based on $72 one day pass: 425,000 tourists.

    Disneyland achieves the same revenue but the demographics change.
    well, this makes a huge assumption that Disney will see an increased non-AP tourism dollar right away which I highly doubt. I don't think Disney is willing to take that risk. As stated before many times on the board - the way to make things change is to NOT go and NOT spend the money, not ask them to change the way they earn profit by adjusting their revenue streams.

    and remember - changing the model would require expenditures on marketing and promotions, not to mention how to handle hundreds of thousands of angry So Cal AP holders. I would love reduced crowds, etc. but I don't see it happening with a reduction in what they already sell. It would more likely be a modified blackout overlay so instead of all lower-tiered APs being blacked on same days (and thus crowded on others) they might overlap or modify the dates. This was an idea floated somewhere else and was interesting - but - bottom line unless there is a threat to their revenue coming in (read: people STOP coming) they won't change..

    when was the last time anyone complained at city hall? did they want you to voice your opinion on paper or did they try to placate you with freebies or other methods - so that things don't get recorded. That's been the MO lately and as such there is not a lot of visibility to any of what we are calling problems. Many times people come and say "disneyland is always crowded" and that's it - they deal with it.

    A company in the business of making money and paying dividends to shareholders will weigh profit to other factors like customer sat - but with a large conglomerate like Disney the parks are not always the #1 priority. So what we may say is of the utmost importance - they may have it down as #20 - or #200....

    I'll say it again - if people STOP coming they will wonder and make changes. Then, though, if they stop coming then it's no longer crowded So I ask you - will people stop coming (not just the several hundred on this board, but thousands)? I doubt it.
    "[Disneyland] has that thing - the imagination, and the feeling of happy excitement - I knew when I was a kid." - Walt Disney

  12. #36

    I just wanted to present some analysis from a business perspective (and being a shareholder). Actually 425,000 extra tourists is not a stretch for Disneyland which averages about 15 million visitors a year...The extra 425,000tourists would be an increse of 2.8%. Marketing of course would of course need to be changed.


  13. #37
    Sweet Spot - we miss you! shna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeCool View Post
    I just wanted to present some analysis from a business perspective (and being a shareholder). Actually 425,000 extra tourists is not a stretch for Disneyland which averages about 15 million visitors a year...The extra 425,000tourists would be an increse of 2.8%. Marketing of course would of course need to be changed.
    Wouldn't bringing in an "extra 425,000 tourists" make the parks more crowded rather than less crowded?

    Why on Earth would a company that makes money by getting people into its parks want to change things so fewer people will visit its parks? That makes no sense.
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  14. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by shna View Post
    Wouldn't bringing in an "extra 425,000 tourists" make the parks more crowded rather than less crowded?

    Why on Earth would a company that makes money by getting people into its parks want to change things so fewer people will visit its parks? That makes no sense.

    I was not advocating extra tourists but trying to show how the lost revenue would be made up. Actually based on the analysis I presented, Disneyland would experience more visitors but less passholders. Additionally, although AP spend money, Disneyland counts on the tourists who spend their money on property including hotel stays (though AP do as well but mostly at a discumted AP rate)
    Last edited by JoeCool; 11-17-2009 at 04:45 PM. Reason: typo

  15. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeCool View Post
    If DIsney eliminated the AP program, there would a net loss of $202.2M for Disneyland. In order to make up the loss and with $72 a ticket for DIsneyland one day pass, 2,808,000 tickets would need to be sold.

    If the AP program was modified, and just had a Premium and Deluxe pass available (SO Cal and SO Cal Select passes eliminated) and let's say only 200,000 prior So Cal passholders upgraded to a Premium Pass, the revenue would look like:

    200,000 Premium Passes (former So Cal passholders): $85.8M
    200,000 Premium Passes - Existing prior to AP Change: $85.8M
    Total: $171.6M
    actually fact is that most of the So Cal passholders would not upgrade, therefore Disneyland would be loosing more money (for its shareholders)

    Just because people live in California does not mean we have a sugar daddy in every pocket. (though those TV shows like to pretend thats how we all live) people would just move to having a Knotts pass(they are still affordable) or not one at all...

    Out of town tourists needed to make up the $30.6M shortfall based on $72 one day pass: 425,000 tourists.
    and fact being that A_____ this economy still has not really been that nice to people so people are still not traveling (or going to theme parks)
    and B________ people are still afraid of terrorists and are not traveling as much as they used to.
    Last edited by stan4d_steph; 11-18-2009 at 05:38 AM. Reason: Fixed quote and vB code

  16. #40

    DL is positioned by Disney as a regional park, hence the many types of ap's, they want the local repeat biz. It's clear if you live anywhere but the west coast Disney prefers to lure you to WDW. This is obvious in how the ticket options are structured for each place. DLR even with the expansion for CA will be hard pressed to convince folks to spend a week.

    With an AP I do go a lot and even when I'm trying to be frugal, spending 10-20 on food and stuff is a given. I try not to even think how great the markup is, when I'm paying 2-3 dollars for soda that costs them likely 5-10 cents. Cut food prices? I don't think so, I never been to the park and seen food stands, short of crowds, likely biggest money maker in the park.

    I'd don't think that Disney has any desire to reduce crowds at DLR why should they? Also it's not clear that crowd sizes actually is a factor in anyone's decision process for whether do a vacation to DL (vs. locals). I don't mean a 1 day impluse trip, but a multiple day vacation.

    However I do agree it's not clear the free bday promotion was a good idea. Likely the assumption was no one goes alone, but as you say i think many locals just traded in the dollar value and saved money they likely would have spent anyways.

    Last edited by doublewide77; 11-17-2009 at 10:54 PM.

  17. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by SUNSHINE4565 View Post
    [B]actually fact is that most of the So Cal passholders would not upgrade, therefore Disneyland would be loosing more money (for its shareholders)

    [[[/B]
    You are probably correct. The real question is after the 2009 Birthday promotion, will lots of APers renew in 2010 when they used the free admission and/or gift card to use as a down payment for a 2009 pass?

  18. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by doublewide77 View Post
    .

    However I do agree it's not clear the free bday promotion was a good idea. Likely the assumption was no one goes alone, but as you say i think many locals just traded in the dollar value and saved money they likely would have spent anyways.
    I agree Disney definitely underestimated the impact of the free admission on your birthday promotion.

  19. #43

    Stop me if you've heard this one:

    A Duck and a Pig walk into a bar and order the same Top-shelf drink.....the bartender charges the Duck $9.00 and the Pig .50 cents.

    The Duck says "hey, why does he only have to pay .50 cents? Why am I paying 18 times as much!!!?

    The bartender says "but he comes in here all the time, so I give him a discount".

    "Yeah, but a discount is 5% - 10%, maybe even 20%.....you're giving him 94% off!!!!" Implores the Duck. "If you can afford to give him so much and still make money what kind of mark-up are you charging me?"

    "Make money?" bristles the bartender, "I am not making any money off of the pig, why do you think I have to charge you so much?"

    The Duck quacks off in a huff.

    "Lost another one you did" snorted the Pig. "You know, this place is really going down hill".

    "I know, I know, looks like I am going to have to offer more discounts to me regulars just to stay afloat" mumbles the bartender.

    "Hiccup" spits the Pig.

    ~Jeff

  20. #44
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    If that's supposed to be an analogy, I'm missing the point.

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    I think it tries to shed some light on why everything is so expensive at DL, to offset the discounts given to APs. But I think there may be more to it than just that.


  22. #46
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    After reading it a couple more times I now think the message is that a company cannot survive on regulars alone. Both regulars and tourists are needed, so treat both well.


  23. #47
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    Oh, I completely get what the person is trying to say, but the analogy doesn't work.

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    Oh I cry a bit, I don't sleep too good, but I'm fine


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    I think it sorta works. In both there is a business and 2 types of customers.


  25. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeCool View Post
    I thought I would do a little revenue analysis.

    Based on the following:


    Premium $429.00
    Deluxe $289.00
    Southern California $194.00
    Southern California Select $144.00

    Let's assume that there are 800,000 Annual Passholders with a breakdown
    of 600,000 passholders that own SO Ca or So Cal Select and 200,000 passholders that either have a Premium or Deluxe Pass.

    Based on the above figures and allowing for maximum revenue, let's for simplicity, assume that 600,000 passholders have the more expensive So Cal pass and the remaining 200,000 passholders have the most expensive pass the Premium Pass

    Revenue for one year:

    600,000 So Cal Passes: $116.4M
    200,000 Premium Passes: $85.8M

    Total: $202.2M

    If DIsney eliminated the AP program, there would a net loss of $202.2M for Disneyland. In order to make up the loss and with $72 a ticket for DIsneyland one day pass, 2,808,000 tickets would need to be sold.

    If the AP program was modified, and just had a Premium and Deluxe pass available (SO Cal and SO Cal Select passes eliminated) and let's say only 200,000 prior So Cal passholders upgraded to a Premium Pass, the revenue would look like:

    200,000 Premium Passes (former So Cal passholders): $85.8M
    200,000 Premium Passes - Existing prior to AP Change: $85.8M
    Total: $171.6M

    This would be a loss of $30.6M if the SO CAL and SO Cal Select passes were eliminiated and the AP rolls would be reduced from 800,000 to 400,000.

    Out of town tourists needed to make up the $30.6M shortfall based on $72 one day pass: 425,000 tourists.

    Disneyland achieves the same revenue but the demographics change.
    I understand that you are trying to keep this simple but I have a couple of comments. First this only counts for the revenue from admission. I don't have anything to back this up but I have to believe that the revenue that a SoCal AP would bring in from food, beverages, parking, souvenirs, etc. during their 6 -10 visits a year would outweigh the revenue from the tourists buying the $72 one day pass. Second the majority of out of state tourist aren't going to be buying a $72 one day pass and anybody can find discounted parkhopper tickets. It just seems to me that when it is all said and done it would just about be a wash.

    It is just hard to believe that Disneyland's profits went down last year considering that they keep raising their prices and more people keep showing up. The other thing to keep in mind is that the SoCal passes are already blocked out on the busiest days!

  26. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by cstephens
    If that's supposed to be an analogy, I'm missing the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by cstephens View Post
    Oh, I completely get what the person is trying to say...
    Ok.
    ~Jeff

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