Beating 9-year-old nets father 3 years in prison (for Monsters, Inc.-related beating) (http://www.cleveland.com/cuyahoga/plaindealer/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_standard.xsl?/base/cuyahoga/1028112915187070.xml) - The Plain Dealer, 7/31/02

Scott Whitney was sentenced to three years in prison after paddling his 9-year-old daughter and leaving bruises on her buttocks. According to the article, Whitney had beaten his daughter because he had wanted to take his children to see Monsters, Inc., and was lied to by his daughter about not yet seeing the film when she had already seen it with her grandfather.
The children lied when he asked them if they had seen it because they feared what he would do if they told the truth, Assistant Prosecutor Ronni Ducoff said.

During the movie, he discerned they had seen it already when his 4-year-old son made comments about what was going to happen next, Ducoff said. His anger brewed during the car ride home and he began slapping his daughter. At home, he took the wooden paddle to her.

Originally posted by Lani
Scott Whitney was sentenced to three years in prison after paddling his 9-year-old daughter and leaving bruises on her buttocks.
Good. I hope he gets paddled there.

I'm pro-spanking. But this was not, in my opinion, an appropriate reason or an appropriate method. Spanking, when carried out, should be done with an open hand only, and never in a way to cause any kind of marks. Heck, when my daughter needs a spanking just a light tap on the butt is enough to do the trick, every child is different. But this guy was way out of control and way over the line. Three years isn't enough. :mad:

Ugh. What a horrible story. And what a horrible situation for those poor children. I've seen too many families like this. Where the dad is so irrational and gets so angry at the stupidist things, that the rest of the family does everything they can to hide the truth from him. Then when he finds out, he is just as irrationally angry. And sadly, these are the same people who will turn around and spout family values at you. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Bill Catherall
I'm pro-spanking.
I'm not.
In no circumstance should anyone strike, slap, tap, hit... a child.

Ever.

It teaches children that a solution to something could just very well be violence. Parents may intend to start out just saying it's just "spanking"...but in this person's mind (the man in the article) he thinks that "paddling" was 'enough to do the trick.'

As someone who was physically abused as a child, I am not nor ever will be pro-spanking.
:)

I was spanked as a child. It did not emotionally scar me, nor turn me into a violent psychopath.

Spanking can be, and should be, done in a way that the message is NOT pain. The message is "you've dissapointed your parents." It's hard to get that across to young children verbally. A physical action, without causing pain, is a good way to get the message across. I will never spank my children to hurt them. I will spank them to send them a message.

I don't use 'spanking' as a rule. But, there are times when a slap on the buttocks is in order. Sometimes all the talking in the world doesn't do any good.

I don't allow them to hit one another so hitting them, yes, would be hypocritical, to us.

I am not saying it is completely wrong. I am not saying it is right. I get worried when some people say they spank their kids because I know some people don't know when to stop or what is appropriate. I worry when the parents have too high of expectations of appropriate behaviour. Or too low.

Originally posted by Gemini Cricket

I'm not.
In no circumstance should anyone strike, slap, tap, hit... a child.

Ever.

:)

Okay, I have felt badly ever since I met you and I said this to you. When I said I had to fight the urge to 'smack 'em' I meant when they talk sassy and sarcastic to me that I have to really fight the urge to slap them. I don't do it though.

See, I was also abused {although there is no admission of this} and man, the things they say sometimes would have sent a shoe or a belt flying. {Sometimes I wonder what was worse, the physical or verbal abuse. Or the lack of interest.}

I know a lot of their behaviour is age appropriate. I didn't always know this, I am learning this. :)

I love my kids so much, though, that I know sometimes they do deserve a controlled punishment. Never hit a child in anger.

Okay, I am going to go now and hug my little monkey. :)

Originally posted by Gemini Cricket
I'm not.
In no circumstance should anyone strike, slap, tap, hit... a child.

Spoken by a true "non-parent." ;) :D
Originally posted by Ghoulish Delight
A physical action, without causing pain, is a good way to get the message across. I will never spank my children to hurt them. I will spank them to send them a message.
Exactly. Sometimes words, timeouts, negative reinforcement (taking priveledges away), etc. just doesn't work. The only way is with a little physical coercion. I'm not talking about physical abuse or beating the child. Example:

"Kid" continually comes out of her room after being put into bed and just stands in the doorway staring at you while you tell her to get back to bed. What do you do?

Method 1: Yell: "Get back to bed right now!"
Result: Continues to stare at you...doesn't budge.

Method 2: Speak softly and ask, "What's the matter sweety...got to go potty?"
Result: "No." Continues to refuse to go to bed.
You ask, "Why don't you want to go to bed?"
Response: "I'm not tired." Begins to show a scowl.
You say, "But it's 10 o'clock at night and you've got school tomorrow." The stand off continues...

Method 3: Bribery: "If you go to bed right now I'll buy you a treat tomorrow."
Result: It might work, but do you really want to have a kid who obeys you only when paid off?
Or...more likely...you'll get more blank stares because the kid prefers instant gratification over future rewards.

Method 4: Punishment, take something away: "If you don't go to bed right now you won't get to watch TV for the rest of the week."
Result: Highly unlikely to work on a very young child (under 8 or so). They're unlikely to understand the implication of such a consequence. More blank stares...and grumpy looks.

Method 5: Punishment, spanking: "If you don't get in bed right now I'm going to give you a spanking. (Start counting) That's 1...(no movement). That's 2...(begin to walk towards them with a serious look and brisk movement...child begins to tremble). That's 3!" (At this point either the hand meets the butt or the child jumps into bed because she knows she doesn't like spanking...satisfying her desire for instant gratification. ;) )

These scenarious play out in my house daily, at least 5 times a day. We have 2 very stubborn kids and we've tried everything. (The above "go to bed" example is my daughter.) Spanking...while a last resort...does indeed work. However, since every child is different, every method that actually works for a child will vary. There is no cookie cutter solution. For instance, my oldest son (6 years old) doesn't respond to spanking as well as he does to positive reinforcement (a reward system). You can spank him until he's blue in the butt and it doesn't do anything but make him mad at you and cause him to become more violent. But it worked when he was younger. Now that he's older we've had to adjust our method. My daughter (almost 4) responds better to an occasional spank (and I mean very occasional, just a threat is all that is necessary, and spanks don't actually have to bring pain to get results) but has no response to any other kind of reward or punishment system.

Just as spanking shouldn't be used as the only means of punishment, it should also not be frowned upon and completely dismissed as being abusive.

Originally posted by Ghoulish Delight
I was spanked as a child. It did not emotionally scar me, nor turn me into a violent psychopath.
It does happen, though. For some kids it's hard to develop a healthy self-esteem when someone's knocking you down, literally.
I think that's one thing I admire about you, GD, is that it seems you have a healthy self-esteem... it's harder for others (like myself) to get there. :)
Originally posted by Ghoulish Delight
Spanking can be, and should be, done in a way that the message is NOT pain. The message is "you've dissapointed your parents." It's hard to get that across to young children verbally. A physical action, without causing pain, is a good way to get the message across.
I understand what you're saying here. I do. I respect your opinion. We don't agree... :)

MouseWife-
When I met you, I developed a HUGE respect for you. Juggling children is hard. :) It was a joke, I don't take things all that seriously all the time. I know I can be a self-righteous poster sometimes that appears to have opinions about everything, but I laugh all the time.
And abuse, verbal or mental, it's still abuse. It's hard. But hey, I think we turned out just fine. You've got kids, I get to carry around a cool walkie-talkie and tell people what to do... life's good. :)

Originally posted by Gemini Cricket

It does happen, though. For some kids it's hard to develop a healthy self-esteem when someone's knocking you down, literally.
I think that's one thing I admire about you, GD, is that it seems you have a healthy self-esteem... it's harder for others (like myself) to get there. :)

MouseWife-
But hey, I think we turned out just fine. You've got kids, I get to carry around a cool walkie-talkie and tell people what to do... life's good. :)

Um yeah, {a la Barney Fife} life is good.

{I agree about the self-esteem.}

I have to say, on the topic of counting to five. Works every time!! Sometimes I say 'Do you want me to get my belt?' Now, they know I don't need a belt and they laugh at me. Then I say 'Dad has one!!' I have never, ever had to use it. But, it does calm down a crazy bunch who don't want to stop hitting each other, jumping on the bed, screaming {late at night}, or terrorizing the dog. It's the element of Will she?

My husband works alot so I have to really make them mind me. Things can go crazy. I can't have that. I have never told them 'Wait until your father gets home'. I want them to respect me, to listen to me.

As my kids are more older, I also can explain to them how they come across when they behave badly. They don't want to appear to be knuckleheads. Teachers have loved having them because I explain to them that if they misbehave they are insulting the teacher and in effect, will not learn.

I'm not a parent, and I don't play one on TV.


From what I understand, the worst thing that parents can do in disciplining their children is to punish while the parents are still angry. The method Bill describes takes the irrational and inconsistent anger out of the punishment, and that is what you want. The issue isn't so much spanking, but the abuse of authority. Parents, in their moment of anger and frustration, can do all sorts of mean things to their children, whether it be spanking, pinching, pulling hair, tugging wrists, screaming, or whatever. We're not counting yanking children in an emergency to prevent them from getting hurt (for example, to pull them out of the path of a moving car or inserting their finger into an electric fan) -- but punishment has to be meted out in a consistent fashion... it is the irrational and inconsistent anger that children shouldn't be exposed to; not controlled spanking.

Originally posted by Bill Catherall
Spoken by a true "non-parent." ;) :D

I am not a parent because I choose not to pass on the crud my parents did to me. Plain and simple.

(Besides, I'm wayyy too self-centered to take care of someone else. :D )
(I just wanted to respond to that. Now, I'll read the rest of your post.)

I have 3 children...

I don't spank any of them. I think they need it once in a while though...but I won't raise a hand to them....especially when angry. BUT, I seriously think about it though...but I don't.

Originally posted by Lani


We're not counting yanking children in an emergency to prevent them from getting hurt (for example, to pull them out of the path of a moving car or inserting their finger into an electric fan) -- but punishment has to be meted out in a consistent fashion... it is the irrational and inconsistent anger that children shouldn't be exposed to; not controlled spanking.

I was spanked as a child, but with my parents, that led to more emotional and physical abuse (hitting, slapping).

My husband and I talked at length about this before we decided to have our daughter. We didn't want the pattern of abuse to continue.

We spank ONLY when Bailey is putting herself in dangerous situation that we do NOT want her to repeat (IE breaking free of our hands and running out into the street or parking lot, trying to put her hand on the stove..cold or hot, putting fingers or objects in the light socket). We don't spank her to make it hurt, just enough to let her know that the particular event she was engaging in is something she isn't to do again.

If we are very mad at her and we feel that anger creeping, we take a "time out" too. And if I have gotten angry at her wrongly, I do apologize to her and let her know that I was wrong.

When I take a time out, it seems to make them reflect, as well.

I also apologize to them when I have been wrong. I think they need to see that just because I am grown up that I can be wrong and admit it.

I really don't like to see parents/adults have total control over kids just because they are kids. I know that children need structure and rules to give them security, but, I hate the 'I'm bigger than you' mentality.

Just to make sure I'm not labelled as a "big-bad meany" ;) here are the methods of discipline we use for our kids that work much better than spanking.

For my oldest son: We create a chart of behaviors or chores we would like him to work on. When he performs the desired bahavior or chore he gets to put a sticker in that row of the chart. There are columns for every day of the week. At the end of the week if we see that he has enough stickers then he receives a predetermined reward. Last week he got to spend the night with me in the tent in the backyard (his choice).

For my daughter: We use a chart for her too, but she really lives in the "here and now" so her rewards either must come right away or the chart doesn't work. She likes it though because her big brother has one too. For the "go to bed" problem we have with her (as I outlined earlier) we hang 3 of her toy rings on a ribbon on her door knob. If she comes out of her room, for whatever reason, she gets a ring removed. And after last night, if big brother comes out of the room legitemately complaining about her being too noisy (they share a room) then she gets a ring removed. Once all the rings are gone then if she comes out again she gets a spanking (just the mention of the word scares her, so we really never have to do it). Last night I had to remove a ring (actually for the first time since we started this about 2 weeks ago) and that was the only warning she needed.

I must credit my brilliant wife for coming up with these ideas. She's very creative and resourceful.

By the way GC. (I hate to say this on a public board but...) My wife shudders at the way she was raised too. A lot of emotional and psychological abuse. Because of the horrors she suffered through in her youth her methods of discipline are a complete 180 degrees from how she was raised. And although I had a good childhood, I'm learning a lot from her. And just for the record...her parents aren't bad people. Her mother didn't have a good example of a mother when growing up and didn't really know the right way to discipline (who really did 20-30 years ago?). They get along fine today and her mother is a terrific grandmother to our kids now. People learn from their mistakes. So it's all good.

First- Despite views on spanking, this guy beat his daughter...What would have happen if the kids told the truth??

In the state of CA, it is NOT illegal to spank your child, with an open hand, on their butt. If you leave a mark of any sort you are at risk for having CPS called on you.

I was spanked as a child. I was a victim of other types of abuse, but never physical. I am not a sociopath or a violent person. I have never been in a fight in my life.

I think its pretty sad when parents have to defend their parenting methods. If your pro-spanking and your spanking, not beating/brusing your child then more power to you. If your not pro-spanking and have other methods of punishment that work more power to you.

I don't know what I will do when I have kids. I may spank, I may not. I do know that it was effective with me, as was washing my mouth out with Ivory soap for swearing and backtalking (which is now considered abuse).

To end this: I think its pretty sad when people have to defend their parenting methods.

I belong to an organization called the MOMS Club. It's (for lack of a better description) an international support group for stay at home moms. In our chapter alone you see all types of parenting displayed. Our biggest rule is not to critique how another mom parents. Different things work in different families. As each child is unique so is each parent. A timeout may work better than a spanking for one child but the reverse is also true. Each child responds to discipline in their own way. I would never say all children need to be spanked but on the other hand I would never say timeouts work for all children. You have to figure out what works for your child and your family.
Getting back on topic....
Having said that, there is a line between spanking and abuse and obviously the father in this article crossed that line.

We spank ONLY when Bailey is putting herself in dangerous situation that we do NOT want her to repeat (IE breaking free of our hands and running out into the street or parking lot, trying to put her hand on the stove..cold or hot, putting fingers or objects in the light socket). We don't spank her to make it hurt, just enough to let her know that the particular event she was engaging in is something she isn't to do again.

I tottally agree. I am a mother of two delightfully busy girls. And like most parents out there I have done a few things that I was not too proud of in retrospect. But I will never feeling guilty for slapping my daughters hands when they have reached for the stove. I do, however feel that if you rely on any sort of physical punishment to discipline your younguns, all you are just showing that might makes right.

Personally I use the old fashion "Time-Out" method. It's called, "Go To Your Room".;) And if they say no, I just pick them up and put them there myself. I think they find that the scariest thing of all cause I'm short and the chances of them getting dropped is getting higher and higher every year.:D

Originally posted by Bill Catherall

Method 5: Punishment, spanking: "If you don't get in bed right now I'm going to give you a spanking. (Start counting) That's 1...(no movement). That's 2...(begin to walk towards them with a serious look and brisk movement...child begins to tremble). That's 3!" (At this point either the hand meets the butt or the child jumps into bed because she knows she doesn't like spanking...satisfying her desire for instant gratification. ;) )

.

Trust me to get in on the end of a good debate :rolleyes: I just read through all your thoughtful comments. Let me add me two cents:

First, I don't agree with the "counting" method. What this is teaching the child is "I only need to obey mom and dad when they start to get frustrated and raise their voice. I can play or continue to do whatever I want till number four." Why not train your children to obey the first time--bypass the games? Why not kiss your child good night and say "honey, you need to stay in your bed tonight. If you disobey mommy and get out of bed, you will get a spanking" That way--it's all out in the open. Both parent and child know what is expected. The CHILD determines whether the spanking will occur--not the whim of the parent.

I feel that the chances of spanking your children out of anger will be greater using the counting method. Spanking should never be used as a last resort when parents are angry--the child never knows when a spanking is coming, and the parent can get out of control.

Cent number two:
Spanking should never be
--venting of frustration
--associated with anger
--used as revenge
--the right of parents to hit children whenever they wish.

My kids are almost past the spanking years--my youngest is five. I think other methods are more effective with older children. Did I spank my kids when they were younger? You bet. Did they know what would earn them a spanking? Yes indeed. Am I a perfect parent and always follow these guidelines. No. I admit it--I raise my voice, am unreasonable, and have spanked out of anger a few times. So I'm working on it--same as y'all. :)

Those of you who have met my kids know that they are not always perfect angels either, but I'm confident that they will not turn out angry, violent, and sullen because of the spankings they received.

Originally posted by lisap
First, I don't agree with the "counting" method. What this is teaching the child is "I only need to obey mom and dad when they start to get frustrated and raise their voice. I can play or continue to do whatever I want till number four." Why not train your children to obey the first time--bypass the games? Why not kiss your child good night and say "honey, you need to stay in your bed tonight. If you disobey mommy and get out of bed, you will get a spanking" That way--it's all out in the open. Both parent and child know what is expected. The CHILD determines whether the spanking will occur--not the whim of the parent.

Oh my gosh...I was going to mention this but it skipped my mind. We've been having this exact problem. My son knows that we'll give him until the count of 3 so he doesn't listen to us until after we count. It's been so frustrating, and I've mentioned this to my wife several times. I'll get after him without counting and it really throws him off guard. Then my wife will get after me for not counting to three. I just tell her, "I'm sick of him taking advantage of our 'three chances' method. He knows we're going to let him disobey three times before he gets punished. That just isn't right."

You guys are so right!

In the beginning, they would jump. Now, they don't even move until I get to 5 and am heading their way.

And, now that they are bigger, it is usually a threat that their t.v. will be turned off, video game taken away, or, :eek: I will just go outside and unhook the cable.

If it is something that I am continuously ragging about, I will take permanent measures to stop the activitiy.

Originally posted by Bill Catherall

Oh my gosh...I was going to mention this but it skipped my mind. We've been having this exact problem. My son knows that we'll give him until the count of 3 so he doesn't listen to us until after we count. It's been so frustrating, and I've mentioned this to my wife several times. I'll get after him without counting and it really throws him off guard. Then my wife will get after me for not counting to three. I just tell her, "I'm sick of him taking advantage of our 'three chances' method. He knows we're going to let him disobey three times before he gets punished. That just isn't right."

Exactly! Perhaps instead of "throwing him off guard", why don't you sit down with him and say "from now on, daddy is going to ask you one time to obey. I'm not going to count any more" and take it from there. Mind you, the first few days are going to be tough--because you need to follow though with the promise. But kids are soo smart--they quickly realize what the standard is, and will adjust their behavior accordingly.

This is tougher on the parent than the child--because if you ask the child to do something...you had better be ready to back it up. No suggestions, no floating an idea out there hoping it will catch on.

Here is a good quote from Dare to Discipline ( I know many may disagree with Dr. Dobson, but this book has helped me more than any other in my parenting)

...when a youngster discovers there is no threat beyond the millions of words he hears, he stops listening to them. The only messages he responds to are those reaching a peak of emotion, which means that there is much screaming and yelling going on....the most important limitation of those verbal reprimands is that their user often has to resort to physical punishment in the end anyway. It is also more likely to be severe, because the adult is irritated and out of control."

Anyway, it's one issue I deal with every day. Like I said, I don't always practice what I preach, but I spend a lot of time working on being a better parent, as I know you all do.

Thanks Lisa. I'll give it a go. :D

Originally posted by Ghoulish Delight
... I've seen too many families like this. Where the dad is so irrational and gets so angry at the stupidist things, that the rest of the family does everything they can to hide the truth from him. Then when he finds out, he is just as irrationally angry... :rolleyes:

Ther are just as many moms like this as well. Dads are not the only irrational, angry family members.:)

On another note...

My two kids are drastically different when it comes to punishment. My daughter has feared "time-outs" (she calls them time-pouts :) ) and "go to your rooms" since she was 18 months or so. Shes is 3 1/2 now. A spanking threat does not fase her, but a "time-out" threat gets a prompt result. She does get a spanking occasionally in order to get her immediate attention in a dangerous situation, however.

My son who is now 18 months could care less about a "time-out". When he gets out of time-out, he will go right back to the behavior that caused the time-out in the first place (I know a lot of this is his young age, but the difference between the two children is dramatic.) His time-outs have extended to 15 or 20 minutes at times. I don't think any longer would benefit anyone. However, mention a spanking (kinda hard to do with a diaper, but it terrifies him nonetheless :) ), and he will immediately cease and desist. Now, he only ever receives a spanking in dangerous situations, because the verbal threat of one ends the behavior on the spot.

Discipline and punishment must be tailored to each individual child and situation. The biggest thing is to find what works for your child, and follow-through each and every time.