All they can do is ask for proof of disability, but nope. that'd be discriminating

I was told a while back by a person who deals with validating ADA employees at the company I used to work for. A business can ask for some sort of proof if the business is supplying a special service for ADA persons whether they be a temporary disabled or permanent. Now, what I see happening is that the abusers could start getting bigger and when people that truely need the wheelchairs ask for one they will be checked out already. How sad is that? Disney should have the lawyers come up with something that would not violate anyones rights and stop abusers.

As I just mentioned on another thread...you do not need a SAP to rent a wheelchair...so anyone can get one. To get an SAP you must go to City Hall to request one.

Maybe they should make it that in order to rent a wheelchair, you must go to City Hall and request an SAP...
this might deter the kids from renting the chairs and abusing them...but for the people who truly need the chairs, whether for a child with a leg in a cast, a person with arthritis, or someone who tires easily, surely wouldn't mind a two step process to get the chair if they realized that the system was to cut down on the system abusers.
People who truly need the SAP's use them correctly and don't abuse the system...as our family does. We use one, but we have a daughter who is obviously disabled.

Trying to make it harder for the abusers to get the chairs may be a step in the right direction.

I get so mad when I see someone using a handicapped space without a license. The past years when I was at Disneyland I would not be able to ride some of the rides because I could;nt stand that long in line but I refused to get a whellchair but it looks like it will neccesistate it this year and I feel really odd getting a wheel chair because I look perfectly healthy and I can walk some distances on good days.

Please don't assume that someone using an SAP who 'doesn't look disabled' is abusing the system.

I agree there are some who do abuse - but please don't prejudge everyone who may 'look normal'.

I have the most 'normal' looking son. IN fact he's quite endearing to most who meet him. you wouldn't think to look at him that he had a problem in the world.

But maybe after 15 minutes of waiting in a line for dumbo you might start to pick up on something...Like his incessant ranting and repeating Iwant dumbo Iwant Dumbo I want dumbo I want dumbo I want dumbo I want dumbo. Yea 45 minutes of that is fun.

Or when I tell him that he can't go on the one ride he wants to because fastpass is out and the line is over an hour - the absolute meltdown of this child is heartbreaking (and is rather annoying to passers by)

So If I use a SAP and get in line in front of you - I am not 'getting away with something' I am just doing what I can so my autistic child can find some enjoyment on our vacations as well.

:)

I also spend 1/2 my day waiting with him outside of Splash Mountain, Pirates, Haunted Mansion, etc while Daddy and sister ride, because he will not go on them because he thinks he'll be scared, and no amount of coaxing him will work.

I have a relative who has asthma. Sometimes she has a hard time breathing after walking a short distance (especially when it is hot and humid outside). Sometimes there are days that we need to rent a wheelchair because she gets really tired walking around the park. You would never know she is having a problem breathing because she looks like she is walking normally.

Just the other day she was having a hard time with her asthma and this guest made a comment to her out of the blue "How come you get to go over there? You can walk fine".

Just because he can't see her using a cane, wheelchair or walking with difficulty doesn't mean that she doesn't need special assistance. That was very rude of that person to make that comment to her.

Originally posted by Wizard69
Just because he can't see her using a cane, wheelchair or walking with difficulty doesn't mean that she doesn't need special assistance. That was very rude of that person to make that comment to her.

Yes it was. Unfortunately, there are people who feel that they can diagnose your medical condition on sight. People make the same comments to my husband who *DOES* use a cane, and even a wheelchair on bad days.

My favorite is when someone yells at him for parking, (with a valid California permit), in the blue zone.

AVP

I was once approached by three police officers demanding proof of my parking disability. I get looked at funny alot by people thinking that I am not disabled.

Sometimes there are days that we need to rent a wheelchair because she gets really tired walking around the park

That's why it irritates the heck out of me to see a group of young adults or teens running around with a wheelchair and arguing over who's turn to ride next. Especially on hot days when some elderly people or people who have medical conditions effected by the heat are suffering because all the wheelchairs are checked out. Since having a wheelchair doesn't always mean you have a SAP, I have a question. Can a person get an SAP without having a wheelchair?

Originally posted by socabch


That's why it irritates the heck out of me to see a group of young adults or teens running around with a wheelchair and arguing over who's turn to ride next. Especially on hot days when some elderly people or people who have medical conditions effected by the heat are suffering because all the wheelchairs are checked out. Since having a wheelchair doesn't always mean you have a SAP, I have a question. Can a person get an SAP without having a wheelchair?

You can get an SAP w/o having a wheelchair, or any sort of documentation.

That is correct.. you do not have to have an SAP to rent a wheelchair or ECV, and at Disneyland, there is supposed to be no need for an SAP if you have a wheelchair or visible sign of a disability. That is the point of an SAP - it is for people who have a medical or physical condition that is not obvious to others, so we do not have to plead our case to each CM to be allowed to use the alternate entrances or elevators when we need them.

Can you imagine the nightmare scenario of the line at Town Hall to get an SAP for every wheelchair rental?

At WDW it is a bit different, because so many attractions have mainstream access for people with physical limitations - if a person has a disability or condition in addition to the physical disability that makes it difficult to use the mainstream access, they may need to get a GAC (the equivalent of the SAP). The blasting sun, heat, and humidity can be harmful to some people with serious medical conditions, and autistic kids will sometimes still need to wait away from the crowded queue even if they are in a wheelchair or special stroller.

Originally posted by teri

Can you imagine the nightmare scenario of the line at Town Hall to get an SAP for every wheelchair rental?



Now see this is the problem. I actually think they SHOULD make you go get an SAP before you are able to rent a chair...no matter what your disability may be, whether it is a broken leg, asthema, or what have you. I think doing a two-fold system of renting a wheelchair just might discourage the kids from getting the chairs and misusing the the system. Granted, some kids will be brave enough to go in and get an SAP...but I am sure it will probably deter many...as they will have go go in, look someone in the eye...and lie.

I think the two-fold system just might work to help alleviate some of the problems...

They might have to get more Castmembers in City Hall during heavy traffic hours, such as the opening times...but it might help...

Here's my solution....

ADA, SAPs, wheelchair accessible attratcions, etc. are (well, SHOULD) be about one thing...fair and equal access for people with disabilities (visible or otherwise). So, in my opinion, if you show up to an attraction with an SAP, then your party should then enter the regular stand by line (or FP, if you have them) and when they reach the front of the line, THEN you get on the attraction. Or, if you are alone or are with only one other person and cannot be left unatendanded, then you wait the posted estimated wait time for the ride.

This may be an unpopular opinion, but that sounds pretty fair and equal to me. Everyone would have access to all the attractions, and everyone would have to wait the same ammount of time. This would certainly cut down, if not eliminate, abuse of the system as there would be NO ADVANTAGE. And isn't that really what the goal should be. Equallity, not special treatment? I absolutely agree that disabled people have every right to equal access. I have issues with the concept that they deserve special privilages over others.

Originally posted by Ghoulish Delight
So, in my opinion, if you show up to an attraction with an SAP, then your party should then enter the regular stand by line (or FP, if you have them) and when they reach the front of the line, THEN you get on the attraction. Or, if you are alone or are with only one other person and cannot be left unatendanded, then you wait the posted estimated wait time for the ride.

This suggestion comes up from time to time, but I think it is >far< from being fair or equitable. Think about how much time someone spends waiting in line during a typical visit to a theme park. During that wait time, do people typically stand around quietly staring at the back of the person in front of them or do they typically use the time to chat and socialize with the friends and/or family that they are sharing the day with? For most groups, I'm quite sure it is the second.

Now, imagine being separated from all or part of your party for all of that wait time. Don't you think that would be pretty dramatically detrimental to the social aspect of visiting a theme park with friends and/or family? Would it truly be fair to essentially mandate that separation for one specific group of guests?

-Jeff

this topic has and will be around for a LONG time, because those of us who need the SAP's to be able to enjoy a trip to the park with our special needs family member or friend aren't trying to take advantage, or get 'special treatment' ...it's those people who use the SAP's or wheelchairs to "beat the lines" that cause the grief IMHO.....there are a lot of things Disney could do so you fine healthy no problem folk wouldn't have to feel angry that the group over by the exit got on 'right away' after you've been patiently waiting for however long.....those of us who use our SAP's 'wisely' for want of a better term, do happen to go get fast passes, but we still have to have that little extra assistance to get ON the attraction, many times requiring us to use the exit, I have offered our FP to the CM and been told, mamn You don't need FB, you have a SAP. ..... as for the 'part of the group' in line issue, that only works if you have a group of 3 or more....or if the others in your group are capable of standing in line unsupervised/attended, that isn't always possible.......some theme parks have "check in' systems where you take the SAP .. check in with the CM or employee of the park, get a return time equal to the current wait time, I feel that is totally fair, but at the same time those folks who STOOD in that line for that hour don't "know" that you also waited your hour, all they see is hello, there is a group with a wheelchair, or sometimes NO 'visable' reason and they are being allowed thru the exit and loaded on to the ride with what appears to be "no waiting"......I understand the frustration of you healthy folk, you paid the same as I did to get into the park you want the same perks I get.. ok I'll tell you what, anyone of you who are of the opinion that SAP's are unfair, come spend the day with ME next time I am at the park, and you have to wear a blindfold to impair your vision and ear plugs to impair your hearing, oh and lets make sure to spin you around every so often to simulate a siezure .....it's not even close but it's all I could think of sans drugs to assist in the simulation......the NEXT time you see a group using the Exit, do NOT simply assume they 'beat the ssystem' they didn't have to wait, try thinking how it is to walk in their shoes the rest of their visit... hello the rest of their lives.....that extra minute or two YOU waited to get on an attraction really doesn't amount to much in the larger scheme of things, but I can promise you that every minute counts when you are dealing with special needs children and adults, someone like Tony can walk or stand for a few minutes before needing to ride in his wheelchair or rely on his cane and believe me when I tell you he LIVES for those few minutes, NOT those times when his cane or chair gets him in the exit of a ride at Disneyland....

Think about it sometimes as all of you are so quick to complain about SAP's

See the whole problem I have is that my son has a hard time 'waiting'. He simply can't understand why he can't go on a favorite ride. If it's a few minutes he's generally fine with it, but after10-15 minutes, he's totally unbearable, so if we had to wait for our party to go through the line that would not solve our problem. He'd have a meltdown, and our entire day would be shot. (And the people around us wouldn't want to deal or listen either)

And yea, I'd love to wait in every line they had - if he could. I may get to get on some rides first...but that's about the only 'perk' autism has. I'd pass if given the choice.

Like I said in my previous post, I may get in line first on some attractions, but the other 1/2 of my day is spent waiting for my husband and daughter while they're riding rides my son can't handle. (and yes they get fastpass or wait in the reg line, if my son doesn't ride, we don't use the SAP.) So I'm doing my share of waiting.

Originally posted by Ghoulish Delight
Here's my solution....

ADA, SAPs, wheelchair accessible attratcions, etc. are (well, SHOULD) be about one thing...fair and equal access for people with disabilities (visible or otherwise).

I don't think that any solution will be 100% "fair" and "equal." I am intrigued by this idea that society has that everything is should or can be fair.

Coming up with one solution that is going to be "fair" to everyone is unrealistic. There isn't ONE solution to solve the problems for every person who needs an SAP. Impossible.

In a recent conversation with a group of friends, one friend repeated contributed "Get over it!" to the discussion and I think that it has some merit. Life's not fair. It's not fair that some wonderful people have physical limitations, visible or invisible. It's not fair that some people have to stand in stand-by line while other people go in Fast Pass and use SAPs and use Rider Switch passes.

Today I try to be grateful for what I have.

And just to round the conversation out: Maybe we'll get the WDW system in Anaheim. That would probably be fair-er.

Adrienne K

I was at DCA this morning and in about 1 1/2 hours while in the Flik's Fun Fair area ONLY, I saw at least 3 SAPs being used. Now, before we go into the debate of visible disabilities, let me just say first that one woman and her son used the pass on at least 2 of the rides that we were in line for, one being the ladybug ride which can give quite a good shaking.
Okay, so maybe she couldn't stand for a length of time, and yet she could walk around the park. If standing is difficult, get a wheelchair. Members of my family have done this in the past for various medical reasons and we stood in line, when possible, just like everyone else.
Someone else posted that their child was autistic. I know someone will jump on me for this, but I don't see this as deserving of a special pass. I am a former special education teacher and have taught autistic children AND HAVE DONE FIELD TRIPS WITH THEM! I also have a 4 year old and a 5 year old who have gone to Disney practically since birth. Yes, lines can be long and their patience isn't, so, you know what? We get fastpasses, we come back, or we don't ride.
Toddlers can be impatient, too, and trying to explain why they have to wait another rotation to ride because someone just walked up to the gate and flashed a white card is difficult.

Finally, 3 groups needing passes in Flik's within a short period of time? What are the chances of that? None of the groups included children who looked under the age of 9 and yet they rode after a few minutes wait when families with small children waited up to 20 minutes (which was actually short, considering what I've heard on other days.) If Disney asked for proof of disability, this would cut down on those whose only disability is a moral disability. If people truly need the SAP, then they shouldn't be upset over bringing a doctor's note to help keep the abuse of the system at a minimum.

Has anyone else noticed a large amount of SAPs being used?

Originally posted by Pooh

Someone else posted that their child was autistic. I know someone will jump on me for this, but I don't see this as deserving of a special pass. I am a former special education teacher and have taught autistic children AND HAVE DONE FIELD TRIPS WITH THEM! I also have a 4 year old and a 5 year old who have gone to Disney practically since birth. Yes, lines can be long and their patience isn't, so, you know what? We get fastpasses, we come back, or we don't ride.

From what I know about Autism, and it isn't much, however I do know that an autistic child or person simply cannot understand, process, comprehend or grasp the notion of a long line. They just don't "get it" why they cannot ride a ride "NOW". And no amount of explaining will help them "get it".

Ah, the old "if they can't keep up they will just have to miss out" argument.

When my arthritis is flaring, I don't use wheelchair or ECV because it takes more time, energy and effort for me and my family to use wheelchair than to walk. Trust me, I wait and rest plenty between attractions when I am in a relapse.

And my autistic son does fine in some lines... but then there are the "touchy" lines, the claustrophobic lines, the queues with overstimulating theming. Go more than 30 minutes in one of these lines with a child who reacts to stress or fear by compulsively grabbing and throwing things, or having a headbanging tantrum... add in some nasty bystander reactions to these events, and then repeat that scene 9 times in a day. Sound exhausting and unpleasant? It is. It means we don't get much enjoyment from our vacation day, a day for which we paid $$$$. It can be prevented by 2 things - staying away and missing out, or using the SAP when needed.

Oh boy here we go again....

I have a relative who has a severe case of asthma. Some days it is hard for her to walk around the park. When her asthma is bad, sometime we get a wheelchair. Other times she will walk. However, to stand in a long line for a long period of time is hard if you have asthma and are having an asthma attack. (If you think it's not true, the next time you walk around somewhere, try inhaling deep and then exhaling in one fast breath for the whole time you are walking around and see how long you can do that before getting dizzy.). Just because you don't see a person's disability doesn't mean they are not disabled in some way.

Originally posted by Pooh
ISomeone else posted that their child was autistic. I know someone will jump on me for this, but I don't see this as deserving of a special pass. I am a former special education teacher and have taught autistic children AND HAVE DONE FIELD TRIPS WITH THEM! I also have a 4 year old and a 5 year old who have gone to Disney practically since birth. Yes, lines can be long and their patience isn't, so, you know what? We get fastpasses, we come back, or we don't ride.

As the mother of an autistic child I can tell you that every autistic child is different. Some can handle things that others can't. Waiting is often the most difficult thing we can do in a day. And depending on the child's understanding of speech is a major factor as well, they don’t always understand what is explained to them. And I can tell you our 6 year old (NT) neighbor and my 6 year old autistic son are worlds apart - you cannot compare them.

Simply saying "no we can't do that because the line is 60 minutes long and fast pass is in 2 hours" means NOTHING to my child. It probably sounds like adults in a Charlie Brown Cartoon to him. He doesn't and can't understand 'in two hours' I pick my battles with him. And if that means that I take him on Dumbo, NOW, so we can enjoy the rest of our day in peace (as well as for the comfort of those around us so they don't have to listen to him have a meltdown). Then that's what I'm going to do.

There are also some queues that are loud and overstimulating to him, so to skip the queue and go in the exit is often our best alternative. He’s going to miss out on enough in life, I’m going to make sure he can enjoy what he can.

I personally think that the SAP should just be vanished. I've seen my share of people who do abuse the system. What irritates me the most is when a party is using a SAP they get all demanding. Like for example, they want demand to go on the ride at that moment or like when they want a specific row. According to my knowledge, that pass is not for priority seating or not waiting a few minutes in the SAP.
I know when it's a busy day and lines are like an hour long, and you have a SAP you don't get to go on right away. If it's not busy yeah I don't mind you going on right away. But it's not fair for those in line having to wait in that line, so you shouldn't mind if you have to wait 5 to 10 mins.
Or the second thing that bugs me is when teenage kids come up to with a SAP and say one of their friends is disabled and they are limping. Fine with me I really don't do much judging, but when I see them getting off the ride and running to another attraction I feel just taking there pass away. Cuz a few a moment ago, one of them were limping and all of a sudden you're running away.

Also, I heard that Disney is just planning on getting rid of SAP.

Well I have stayed out of this debate for a while. Let me prefice this by saying that my dad is in a wheelchair and can not walk at all. We have not attempted a trip to Disneyland since his accident because of DL's age (smaller walkways, huge crowds, and many rides that would be impossible for him to transfer onto).

We made his first trip to a theme park in over 6 years to DCA last year. This park did so many things right. We did not use an SAP at all during our trip. Lines accomodated wheelchairs with no problems. Other attractions were amazing in the accesability (GRR... though we did not attempt this attraction). The highlight of the day was probably riding the sunwheel without having to transfer. Regardless of what you think of DCA being able to spend some hours with my dad inside the park doing things that could not be done anywhere else was Disney Magic for me.

The primary reason that Disney has and will continue to have special loading for wheelchairs and I assume SAP is that the queues (primarily at Disneyland) were not desined to hold wheelchairs. Part of ADA is that you not draw undue attention to someone with a disability. Disney is in the middle of this debate with providing equal access yet not drawing undo attention. I know that many people do not understand why people need SAP. You don't notice things that are wrong/hard or done right for people with "disabilities" until you need them.

While there are people who abuse the system there are people who abuse all of the systems in the park. There are people who "steal" fastpasses from the machine and others who try to share stamps at the main gate. Just becuase some people cheat the system should the entire system be abolished? No. I agree that new systems could be put in place to help curtail cheating and would be ok with that.

As many SAP users have posted, many if not all would not mind showing proof that they need SAP. But even with this system people can still try and cheet the system by writing up false doctors reports etc.

As for the increase in SAP could that also have something to do with the fact that science has imporved, and ADA is working? For years people with "disabilities" did not leave the house because they could not gain access to places that "normal" people could. While some is due to corruption of the system a good portion could be that more people are aware of programs that help them and are willing to go out because it is not a huge ordeal to attend the DLR.

Not a response to Techie7, just a response in general.

Oh, is it time to bash on SAPs again on this forum as well? I guess it's been a while, and we just got done with the same old tired fight (which I got sucked into a bit again) on another discussion board, so I guess it's MPs turn.