Caution: Opposing Fantasmic! Opinion Ahead

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally posted by smd4
It's EASY to know what Walt would have wanted. He conceived this grand place called Disneyland (essentially a virtual tour of the man's phsyche), and specified EXACTLY how he wanted it run. It's the folks like you who are running the place who seem to have forgotten "what Walt would have wanted," or feel that it would be utterly blasphemous to try to think the way he did (Heaven forbid! We should never place ouselves on the same level as Walt, because we are merely mortals, and after all, he was next to God...).

That's BS.

It's too bad that people discount the "what Walt would have wanted" argument. If more people tried to at least look at what the man attempted and accomplished, and actually tried to think about things the way he did, then the park wouldn't become the maintenance-deprived, overpriced cesspool, a mere shaddow of its former self, that it's rapidly becoming. I didn't mean that we should toss out Walt's ideals and deisres for the park completely. Mostly, I hate when people demand that things stay exactly as they are because "that's the way Walt made it and that's the way he wanted it." THAT'S b.s. He wanted change, growth, and innovation. Fantasmic!, as a show, certainly was that. It's one of the best imagineering feats that has happened at the park in a long time. The problem with it is NOT that it changed NOS. If it had changed NOS into a functioning, lively place, even if it DID get rid of the quiet peaceful atmosphere that Walt created, I'd have no problem with that. Change is not the enemy. Change for the WORSE is. That's my only beef with Fantasmic! That the traffic flow issues were not thought out at all, and it changed the area for the worse

Your gripe seems to be that it changed at all. That we should preserve the place like a flippin' Walt Disney museum and never change "his dream." Well, his dream was for it to always be up to date and in line with what people wanted TODAY.

I agree that, in terms of the overall spirit of the place, we should always go back to Walt's vision and statements. But when it comes to specific, concrete ideas, and when it comes to what to change and what not to change, NONE of us are Walt.

[innerSpaceman]

Originally posted by smd4
For those of you who remember, Tomorowland was always the "hip" after-dark locale (and, to a lesser extent, Videopolis), while New Orleans Square/Frontierland retained a quiet ambiance that could be found no where else.
Here's another idea: Why not move Fantasmic to the unused Submarine Lagoon?

Part of the problem with MGM's version of the show is the relatively tiny amphitheater where it takes place. Fantasmic needs a wide expanse of open water. Its most dramatic moments are (imo) the cruise-bys of the big ships - the Columbia/Pirate Ship and the Mark Twain. Sure, we'd need to construct a couple more big ships for the show, but that would leave the Mark Twain and the R.o.A. free for romantic nighttime cruises, and would return the hussle and bussle of the Park to Tomorrowland where it is more appropriate. There is a fairly large body of water there sadly in need of a purpose!

I think that takes care of everyone's concerns. The back half of the R.o.A. can remain wilderness, per MerlinJones' request. Fantasmic can remain in the Park (many, many people - this guy included - enjoy the show), and New Orleans Square can retain the nighttime charm appropriate to its theme.

[Not Afraid]

While I believe it is interesting to surmise about what Walt would have done/be doing with the park, it is impossible to know what REALLY would be the case IF he were still alive. Walt was around for a very short period of the Park's life (approximately 1/5). His vision and drive made the park what it is. However, I believe it is difficult to know what difficult business decisions Walt would have had to make over the course of the Park's life. We can make assumptions, but people make surprising decisions that are contrary to popular belief all of the time.

I have a sister who likes to jump into a family discussion and "define" for others what I am thinking. She had known me for 40 years, yet nine times out of ten she is wrong. It's not her fault. There's just no way that she can take in and evaluate all of the personal complexities that go into making a decision. I think we have to be careful of doing things in the name of "what Walt would've wanted". We really have no idea.

[smd4]

Change is not the enemy. Change for the WORSE is..

Yep, I agree with you there. And Fantasmic! definitely was a change for the worse, in my not so humble opinion.


Your gripe seems to be that it changed at all. That we should preserve the place like a flippin' Walt Disney museum and never change "his dream."

Not true. Some changes are GREAT. Indiana Jone, which fits in so well with the theme of Adventurland that it seems practically MADE for the area, for instance. Or ToonTown, beautifully thought out and rendered.

Heck, even New Orleans Square was a change to the former Frontierland/Magnolia Park thing, and it was a great change for the better.

I have no problem with people who like the show, and I agree, the effects are great. But for Walt's (whoops, I mean "God's") sake, move it to someplace where it won't destroy what "some guy" long ago created as one of the best parts of the park.

[LIMANDL4EVA]

Originally posted by smd4
LIMANDL4EVA, your profile indicates that you were born on July 17, 1955, which doubt. So I paraphrase your question back to you:

Have you actually ever seen New Orleans Square before Fantasmic!?
Of course I have, and I know where you are coming from, what I am saying is that you can just wait until the summer is over so you can take nightly cruises on the ships, I too love when you can ride the mark twain, but during the summer it would be crowed anyways with all the people there, so why not put on a great show at the same time

[mousey_girl]

Originally posted by Kevin Yee
I'm continually surprised by how in sync the members of MousePad are with my thoughts. I've been doing some Fantasmic thinking lately, and have an article on it coming up in a week or so that addresses many of these same ideas. I'll withhold my thoughts on it for now - wouldn't want to spoil anything - but I wanted to express amazement that once again the Pad seems to have supernatural powers in knowing what I'm going to write about!

You Tease!! ;)

[cstephens]

Originally posted by innerSpaceman
Here's another idea: Why not move Fantasmic to the unused Submarine Lagoon?

I don't think the sub lagoon is nearly big enough for Fantasmic, unless Fantasmic was seriously changed from its present form. Also, you'd have to re-do the whole area to accommodate the crowds, which would not fit around the lagoon. Lastly, I don't see how Fantasmic could begin to fit the Tomorrowland theme, if that's an issue.


Originally posted by smd4
Not true. Some changes are GREAT. Indiana Jone, which fits in so well with the theme of Adventurland that it seems practically MADE for the area, for instance. Or ToonTown, beautifully thought out and rendered.

So change is only good if you happen to like/agree with it?


I'm amazed at how many people apparently have latent psychic abilities as they are able to channel Walt Disney and tell us how he would have felt about things he never saw when he was alive.

[innerSpaceman]

Originally posted by cstephens
I don't think the sub lagoon is nearly big enough for Fantasmic, unless Fantasmic was seriously changed from its present form. Also, you'd have to re-do the whole area to accommodate the crowds, which would not fit around the lagoon. Lastly, I don't see how Fantasmic could begin to fit the Tomorrowland theme, if that's an issue.
Personally, I don't see how Fantasmic fits in with the theme of Frontierland either. It's a Disney-movie themed show, and so would best fit in Fantasyland, but can be said to be a proper fit anywhere in Disneyland.

And sure, the Sub Lagoon area would need some major reworking for Fantasmic to take place there (imagine the crowds on that thin strip of land around the Matterhorn!) I'm just saying that perhaps a whole lot of renovation should be done. If you combined the Submarine Lagoon with the old Motorboat Cruise lagoon, I think you'd have a big enough venue.

I really think the whole crowds, loud, big show thing would fit so much better with (and would improve dramatically) the atmosphere of Tomorrowland than it does with the atmosphere of Frontierland / N.O.S. - and there is a large body of water in Tomorrowland waiting for something to happen . . .

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally posted by innerSpaceman

If you combined the Submarine Lagoon with the old Motorboat Cruise lagoon, I think you'd have a big enough venue.
And then what? Move the Matterhorn 20 feet to the left? There would still be no where to place an audience. I say save it for the third (hopefully non-waterpark) gate.

[Rallymonkey23]

Hey, While were at it, why don't we just take out the monorail and IASW to make sure they have enough room for a show that would just bring people to Tommorrowland! I would have to agree with GD, if anything, put the show in the 3rd gate. And hopefully it's not a waterpark. We don't need another one in the area.

[TheMur]

Ten years later I still love Fantasmic.

It is worth the wait just to see the Pink Elephants on Parade!!!!

The Mur

[TerryTiger]

Originally posted by LIMANDL4EVA

The point is, that one of the most evocative, charming, romantic places in the park after dark was destroyed in the name of "progress," because some dunderhead decided that it was necessary to cram in just a little bit more junk where it didn't fit.

For those of you who remember, Tomorowland was always the "hip" after-dark locale (and, to a lesser extent, Videopolis), while New Orleans Square/Frontierland retained a quiet ambiance that could be found no where else. It's a shame that it's gone, and it's a shame that folks can't experience this place as Walt would undoubtedly have wanted it.

Nothing is gone, things just switched places. Now the ROA is the "hip" after-dark locale and TL has the quiet ambience that can be found no where else. See, the new Tomorrowland isn't a failure, it was just done to move the quiet area from the west side to the east side. ;-)