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Bytebear
12-03-2006, 08:39 PM
Tonight, my family attended Disneyland to see the candlelight procession. We watched the first show and then had dinner and went of a few rides. As we were leaving the park, we wanted to go shopping and went to the shops on main street while the second procession was going on.

As we browsed, we found ourselves in the Magic Shop, and noticed that the doors to the magic shop and the adjacent store on the corner had the doors closed, and a CM was locking the door to the shop on the other side. We tried to exit the door toward the Opera House and it was locked. When we asked what was going on, we were told we had to exit at the other end of the building. Aside from the obvious inconvenience, it was clearly a safety violation. We grudgingly went out the only open door, being told all the time where to go. Traffic control was on high alert, and we were told several times that we could not get to there from here.

We finally went across the street and as we passed the Emporium, we noticed the doors locked there as well. Clearly some manager had the brilliant idea that to discourage people from cutting through the shops they should just lock the exit doors. Aside from being a poor marketing decision (discouraging shopping), it is another fire safety issue. Had there been any kind of emergency, the only way out would be to break down a door or window.

Well, we decided to go to City Hall and let them know of our concern. Well the main entrance was locked too, and the only door open was the side entrance. The lights were out, like they were hiding in there.

We went to the desk and a senior security manager was standing nearby, as we talked to the young man behind the desk. He smiled and agreed that it was too bad for our "inconvenience" but was clearly playing the condescending happy cast member. When a CM, a plump blond woman, standing next to him spoke up, she said "You were trying to cut through the shop, weren't you? You should be using the sidewalk." Well, that was just rude, and she shoud be ashamed. I have never been treated so badly at Disneyland. He said he would look into it but we all knew he was blowing smoke. The manager just stood and watched. As we left the room, we heard laughter from the young man.

So, we decided it was time to call the Anaheim Fire Marshall since the Disney employees weren't doing anything. Talking to the Fire Marshall supervisor on the phone, it turns out they already got two 911 calls and four other complaints about the situation. He had already sent marshalls to Disneyland to assess the situation. He was clearly upset at the situation. I would not be suprised if they get a big citation.

What bothers me is that some stuipd manager thought it was more important to control guests movements than their safety, and then to be rude and condescending when confronted with their mistakes is just plain wrong.

I Heart Disneyland!
12-03-2006, 10:38 PM
Wow! I am shocked at the total disregard shown toward you. That's really a shame because it detracts from what we all think of as the Disney magic feeling. I'm sorry this happened to you this evening.

CinemaGal15
12-04-2006, 12:44 AM
As we browsed, we found ourselves in the Magic Shop, and noticed that the doors to the magic shop and the adjacent store on the corner had the doors closed, and a CM was locking the door to the shop on the other side. We tried to exit the door toward the Opera House and it was locked. When we asked what was going on, we were told we had to exit at the other end of the building. Aside from the obvious inconvenience, it was clearly a safety violation. We grudgingly went out the only open door, being told all the time where to go. Traffic control was on high alert, and we were told several times that we could not get to there from here.

We finally went across the street and as we passed the Emporium, we noticed the doors locked there as well. Clearly some manager had the brilliant idea that to discourage people from cutting through the shops they should just lock the exit doors. Aside from being a poor marketing decision (discouraging shopping), it is another fire safety issue. Had there been any kind of emergency, the only way out would be to break down a door or window.That was a shame that they locked the doors and you weren't allowed to shop. But I find it unfair for you to think that they believe it is "more important to control guests movements than their safety." How do you think the guests would act if they weren't controlled? Don't you think that it would be worse and even more of a fire hazard if Disney didn't have controls in place to help w/ guest control? Don't you think that ppl would get trampled because everyone will go whichever direction they want and not be controlled?

chrisaustx
12-04-2006, 03:32 AM
In 2005 it was a zoo when I went to the candlelight procession, after reading the description of Sunday's event, I am glad I didn't go this year.

ralfrick
12-04-2006, 07:00 AM
That was a shame that they locked the doors and you weren't allowed to shop. But I find it unfair for you to think that they believe it is "more important to control guests movements than their safety." How do you think the guests would act if they weren't controlled? Don't you think that it would be worse and even more of a fire hazard if Disney didn't have controls in place to help w/ guest control? Don't you think that ppl would get trampled because everyone will go whichever direction they want and not be controlled?

Don't you know that when there's a fire or earthquake and exit doors are locked that people DIE!!! Most topics on this board can have different valid opinions, but this is not one of them! Every fire department mandates that exit doors remain open and unblocked during business hours.

A bientot.

pisces
12-04-2006, 07:09 AM
As we left the room, we heard laughter from the young man.

So, we decided it was time to call the Anaheim Fire Marshall


You called the Fire Marshall, because you heard laughter? And, not a moment sooner?

If you were panicked, why didn't you reach for your cell phone and dial 911 the moment you saw a locked door?

Instead you continued to meander around.

What were your injuries?

__________________________________________________ ____________


I'm being hard on you; but do you see what I'm getting at?

The City of Anaheim Taxpayers shell out big bucks, for---everytime a guest is annoyed they pester the public Fire Department.

I understand calling 911 if you are injured and need an ambulance.

I understand calling the police if there is an imminent threat.

However, mere annoyance.....I don't understand why that justifies taxing the public servants, who need to be available for more bona fide emergencies.

I don't doubt that you were highly uncomfortable, but then again, mere discomfort.....on a crowded night wouldn't justify it, either, in my opinion.

When I'm there on New Years Eve......everytime I have a concern, or am annoyed with the service I'm receiving......does that justify a call to 911 ??

By your own words, it wasn't until you heard laughter....that you called.

So it feels, judging from your own post, the way it's worded----that this was a sort of revenge call.

Just my opinion.

Candlelight is one of the most crowded nights. You know that going in. You know that there are going to be a lot of irregularities, unusual occurrences.

New Years Eve, too. If I'm not prepared to go-with-the-flow, and ride out any mishaps, gracefully.........I might as well stay home.

my3girls
12-04-2006, 07:16 AM
Whether the call was revenge induced or not, are these doors supposed to be locked during park hours? Is there fire laws that state they must be accessible? People have died at other public venues because of locked doors and a crisis situation (ie fire, panic). Fire marshalls take this sort of stuff quite seriously and a store manager shouldn't be laughing about it.

Burnt Toast
12-04-2006, 07:45 AM
Question is, was there people even in the stores at all? Wouldn't there be no problem at all if the doors were locked but no one was in the stores (save employees, which can exit through backstage)? Heck, if anything it could be said that Guests would be exited backstage as well if there was an emergency.

I think a call to a fire marshal was a little extreme, but then again... people calll 911 when rides break down and stuff, so I'm not surprised that "certain" types of people go that route.

danyoung
12-04-2006, 07:57 AM
I agree that the doors should not be locked. At worst they should be stantioned off with a CM standing there to redirect you. But I also have to say that if that's the worst you've ever been treated by a DL CM, Bytebear, then you've had a pretty good life. I'm coming down on the side of this sounding like a revenge call because Disney had the affront to marginalize your current concern. I'm not saying they're right, but still it doesn't sound like a big deal.

Malcon10t
12-04-2006, 08:00 AM
One thing to note, if a door is required to be unlocked during business hours for safety purposes, there will be a placard above the door stating "This door to remain unlocked during business hours." Disney can and does close doors to maintain traffic, and it is not a fire hazard. Upon checking this morning with the Fire Marshall in Anaheim (my uncle is also one in another county and made a call for me) no citation was issued.

I am sorry you heard laughter and had to tie up a 911 line.

Drince88
12-04-2006, 08:02 AM
Actually, I think what was done was probably appropriate:


Noticed an issue and thought it was a safety concern (if the doors should be open during business hours, then the doors should be open, or close the shops)
Went to City Hall to express concern about a safety issue
Felt it was not going to be addressed to his satisfaction either with a remedy or a resonable explanation that his concern was extreme
Took it 'up the chain' - in this case, the chain happened to be the fire marshall.

I'd probably hesitate to call 911, and would call the 'business' fire marshall number instead, but I think that's a minor point.

cwillis
12-04-2006, 08:05 AM
I think that calling the fire marshall was the right thing to do.

It may seem extreme until someone actually dies, and it it is because of the idiocracy of security managers who don't care about safety hazards.

Traffic control is entirely possible WITHOUT blocking off emergency exits.

stan4d_steph
12-04-2006, 08:06 AM
I'm sure the OP can confirm, but from my reading of Bytebear's post, Bytebear didn't use 911 to contact the marshall. It was the fire marshall who stated they had gotten a couple of 911 calls in relation to the situation at Disneyland.

Also, it's likely that those doors are not the only fire exits. There are probably emergency exits that take you to backstage areas that would be used in the event of evacuation.

pisces
12-04-2006, 08:20 AM
But there was no "evacuation".

There was no "emergency".

Were things imperfect? Was there discomfort? Was it crowded?

If there had been an emergency/disaster....I'm sure everyone would have known about it. The CM's on their Walkie-talkies would have gone into "disaster" mode.

What is the real issue here?

It's individuals being uncomfortable and being inconvienced in a crowd.

This whole thing is, like, sooooo not about disaster/emergency/fire prevention.

It's so obvious from the original post.

And yet, sure.....the resort can always refine it's disaster procedures.

All I'm saying is that could have been done the next day, through a letter, or suggestion....not in the heat (no pun) of the moment when you are trying to retaliate for getting bad service.

(In a true emergency, fire etc.. Those doors may have very well been unlocked, as CMs have special training when in 'emergency' mode).

Again, there was no emergency....hence the doors were as they were.

No emergency, no official evacuation (that I've read about in the press) just another guest dissatisfied with customer service.......

Bytebear
12-04-2006, 08:23 AM
Let me clarify a few points. First of all, I did not call 911, I called the dire department directly, on a non-emergency line and talked directly with a fire marshall. I never talked to a 911 operator.

Second, the stores were not closed, and not all the doors were locked, but most of them were, and they were all on the south end, which means that if a fire broke out on the north end of the shop, everyone would be trapped in the store with no exit.

Third, I didn't call because they laughed at me. I called because I knew they were not going to do anything about the situation. It wasn't about vindication, it was about safety, and they were laghing at the stupidity of a guest's concern about safety. They weren't blowing me off, they were blowing off the safety of all guests.

All I wanted was for them to open the doors. All I could think was that if there were a fire, those people would (literally) be toast. But clearly someone at Disneyland has this plan in place to control traffic. They wanted all exiting traffic on the west sidewalk, and didn't want people cutting through the shops to avoid the CMs directing traffic. I can understand their logic, but it totally violates safety laws, and I think it in inaffectual, as the east sidewalk was actually very light and you could have easily exited the park. The west sidewalk was jam packed.

And what happens when the emergency happens, and the CMs are injured, incapacidated, or otherwise unable to open the doors? Do you think they are trained enough to handle a real emergency, and have the time or state of mind to calmly open 5 sets of doors to let people out?

Bytebear
12-04-2006, 08:36 AM
For those who cannot picture the situation, let me try to clarify. The main street stores I am describing, are a set of four shops all right next to each other running north to south. Each store has a front entrance to main street, and doorways between stores. The two end stores also have side doors exiting to main street allys. All of the doors were locked except the two doors of the north most store. This means that if you are in the south most store, you have to walk through three other stores before you can exit to main street.

my3girls
12-04-2006, 08:40 AM
I think you were perfectly reasonable Bytebear. I would have done the same. I think Cwillis said it exactly when-


I think that calling the fire marshall was the right thing to do.

It may seem extreme until someone actually dies, and it it is because of the idiocracy of security managers who don't care about safety hazards.

Traffic control is entirely possible WITHOUT blocking off emergency exits.

Everything's all hunky dory until the unthinkable happens, people panic, trample and are injured or killed. I really find it difficult to believe with what sticklers Fire marshalls are for the laws that they'd willingly go along with this.

pisces
12-04-2006, 08:44 AM
OK, I'm ignorant.

What safety laws are you quoting from?

I don't know the Anaheim Municipal Code.

There was no emergency. There was no official evacuation.

So, then they were simply doing their normal traffic control on a very crowded evening.

It seems reasonable to me, to block off one part of the sidewalk.....on a crowded evening.....when there was no emergency, and there was no official evacuation.

You were stranded.

Maybe some other people were stranded.

But given that there was no emergency, and there was no official evacuation...

...I think the Resort was right to keep to their normal system of traffic control.

I don't know whether those doors were supposed to be unlocked during normal times, when there is no emergency, and no official evacuation, or not.

There's always risk. We could have an earthquake, and everyone could die. Anything could happen at any moment.

I think you should write them a letter and tell them your concerns.

I'm sure they have continuing fire drills, and disaster procedures are constantly evolving.

I was dissatisfied with a few things the night of the Grand Californian Fire....but that was a bona fide emergency, and official evacuation.

It sounds like you were just stranded, unfortunately, and annoyed.

So, to go from that to....hundreds-of-people-could-have-died that's kind of a big leap, at this point...

But then again maybe not......we could have an earthquake, terrorism etc...

You can spend your life worrying about worse-case scenarios.

cabozone
12-04-2006, 08:57 AM
Interesting, My wife and I attended the 5:30pm Saturday showing, after the show we wandered around the park and when we were heading back to the front of the park to hop to CA the second show of CLP was going. We were told by a CM helping to handle traffic the we SHOULD go through the stores if we wanted to exit the park. What changed from Saturday to Sunday that made them lock some of the doors?

Also if there had been a real emergency I would think that the back alleyway on the west side of Main Street would have been opened to handle a mass flow of traffic.

Enjoyed the show, plan on going next year.

Malcon10t
12-04-2006, 09:17 AM
It is my understanding the Fire Marshall was represented on site both nights. This was due to the possibility of closing Main Street if crowding became an issue and using alternative exits. Can you imagine the complaints if the FM had closed Main Street to traffic? It's not uncommon to close specific areas til attendance in the area dissipates, but imagine the complaints if people were not only not allowed thru the stores, but you were routed out a different exit...

Katlovett
12-04-2006, 01:12 PM
Don't you think that it would be worse and even more of a fire hazard if Disney didn't have controls in place to help w/ guest control? Don't you think that ppl would get trampled because everyone will go whichever direction they want and not be controlled?

I fail to see how closing exits helps this situation. The nightclub fire deaths a few years ago - where people were not only burned to death but were also CRUSHED TO DEATH because they jammed the inadequate exit doors - illustrate the urgent need to leave exits open.

I have been in a few fires (and earthquakes.) I have complained when I have seen doors locked that should be left open, or vice versa i.e. sometimes you see fire bulkheads in buildings that are supposed to be kept shut but the employees wedge them open with a trashcan or brick or whatever because they don't want to be troubled by having to open them repeatedly. The last job I had in a tall building, I volunteered to be the person who kept a special tool for breaking the superduper strong windowglass in my office as well as a rope-type ladder that rolled out and down the outside of the building. Before that, I worked in a large, Dilbert-like maze of offices, and I insisted that they put in LIGHTED exit direction signs so people could find their way out in a smoky fire.

See, here's the important point: PEOPLE PANIC IN EMERGENCIES. People who are supposed to unlock doors or whatever may get crushed by falling objects in an earthquake or maybe they are on the other side of the fire or maybe the crush of the crowd is preventing them from reaching the door to unlock it or maybe they just run off and save their own skins. That's why it's important to have lots and lots of exits.

As a personal injury attorney and later an insurance defense attorney, I have worked on burn victim cases. Burning to death is a bad way to go, and being crushed to death isn't much better.

Good for you Bytebear.

ntz4bbl
12-04-2006, 02:03 PM
I attended the CP this year and just by chance was at the park last year during the CP. This is not the first year that they have controlled traffic this way. DL is way too big of an organization not to have all procedures cleared by risk management before hand. Yes, this is their way to control the massive amount of people moving up and down Main St during and right after the CP. Yes, it's an annoyance (I was caught off guard by it last year). But, I would highly doubt if this had not already been cleared by the powers that be.

PhiSigDuchessCV
12-04-2006, 02:23 PM
I attended the CP this year and just by chance was at the park last year during the CP. This is not the first year that they have controlled traffic this way. DL is way too big of an organization not to have all procedures cleared by risk management before hand. Yes, this is their way to control the massive amount of people moving up and down Main St during and right after the CP. Yes, it's an annoyance (I was caught off guard by it last year). But, I would highly doubt if this had not already been cleared by the powers that be.

I was there on Sunday for the 5:30 performance. When we left the seating area and headed up main street we had no problems getting in and out of any of the stores. We left the park just before the second performance started but my friends and I cut in and out of the stores on the west side with no problem either. Maybe they were locked after that time.

Did the original poster actually try the doors? When we were there the other door the store that is closest to the opera house had all the doors closed and blocked with trash cans during the evening parade. A lot of people thought the doors were actually locked but when I tried one it was unlocked. We went through that door and manuevered my mom's wheelchair around the trash can to get her out of the way of traffic.

Katlovett
12-04-2006, 02:23 PM
"DL is way too big of an organization not to have all procedures cleared by risk management before hand. . . . But, I would highly doubt if this had not already been cleared by the powers that be."

Hopefully, you are not referring to the same Disneyland risk management and powers that be that caused Disneyland to be successfully sued about 10 years ago concerning their policy that emergency medical response teams were held outside the gates while the heart-attack/stabbing/whatever victim was brought out through back routes (and their emergency treatment therefore delayed), so that park guests would not be disturbed by the sight. There is a new-and-improved risk management team now?

Katprint

Edited to note that the flawed procedures described above were subsequently changed.

Bytebear
12-04-2006, 02:52 PM
I did try the door closest to the opera house, and it was locked. I saw the CM physically locking another door, standing on a stepladder pushing the latch up the top jam of the door. A third set of double doors had a small trash can in front of it. I didn't check it. I don't know the time, but it was the second performance, and I enterered the store as the performers were heading down Main Street, so I would guess I did about 30 minutes of browsing before I realized the doors were being locked.