Let's put our money where our mouths are.

[justagrrl]

DOES ONE VOTE COUNT?



In 1645 one vote gave Oliver Cromwell control of England.

In 1649 one vote caused Charles I of England to be executed.

In 1776 one vote gave America the English language instead of German.

In 1839 one vote elected Marcus Norton governor of Massachusetts.

In 1845 one vote brought Texas into the Union.

In 1868 one vote saved President Andrew Johnson from impeachment.

In 1876 one vote made Rutherford B. Hayes President of the U.S.

In 1876 one vote changed France from a monarchy to a republic.

In 1924 one vote gave Adolf Hitler control of the Nazi party

In 1941 Just One Vote ... saved selective service, just weeks before Pearl Harbor.


In 1997, Vermont State representative Sydney Nixon was seated as an apparent one vote winner, 570 to 569. Mr Nixon resigned when the State House determined, after a recount, that he had actually lost to his opponent Robert Emond 572 to 571.

In 1989, a Lansing, Michigan School District millage proposition failed when the final recount produced a tie vote 5,147 for, and 5,147 against. On the original vote count, votes against the proposition were ten more than those in favor. The result meant that the school district had to reduce its budget by $2.5 million.

In 1994, Republican Randall Luthi and Independent Larry Call tied for a seat in the Wyoming House of Representatives from the Jackson Hole area with 1,941 votes each. A recount produced the same result. Mr. Luthi was finally declared the winner when, in a drawing before the State Canvassing Board, a pingpong ball bearing his name was pulled from the cowboy hat of Democratic Governor Mike Sullivan.

In 1997, South Dakota Democrat John McIntyre led Republican Hal Wick 4,195 to 4,191 for the second seat in Legislative District 12 on election night. A subsequent recount showed Wick the winner at 4,192 to 4,191. The State Supreme Court however, ruled that one ballot counted for Wick was invalid due to an overvote. This left the race a tie. After hearing arguments from both sides, the State Legislature voted to seat wick 46 to 20.

in 1996 Just One Vote ... could have elected a member of the Limestone County Board of Education, District Number 5. (This election was decided by a toss of a coin)

[Iceman]

Thanks for those fascinating facts, justagrrl! I hope that GhoulishDelight didn't think I was one of those who thought his lone voice was worthless. I will stand up proudly (alone, if necessary) in defense of my convictions, as it sounds like he is doing. Whether or not it makes a difference is largely irrelevant, as strange as that might sound. Sometimes we have to do things based solely on principle, and I applaud him for doing that even though I don't agree with his premise.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I think not renewing our passes is a good idea for GD and I for many different reasons. The news is just too depressing. Disneyland deserves better, and it hurts to watch the situation get worse. I've stopped reading the DIG, since it just gets me down or angers me. Ignorance is much more blissful.


One of my friends put it best when they said it is like watching an old friend die.
But yes, I still visit the friend while she's healthy enough to be visited.
What if visiting your friend caused her to become sicker? Pouring money at a company is telling them "you are doing the right thing". Saying that not buying one AP doesn't make a difference is like saying you might as well give money to an organization you don't support! Would a liberal person hand money to the NRA and say "oh well, withdrawing my support won't make any difference"?

If you truly are upset about what they are doing, don't give them money. Period, end of story. Otherwise, you have no room to complain.

What I really will miss is seeing all of you guys. We always have fun at the meets. But I think that is more indicative of the people, not the parks. :)

[cstephens]

Personally, I'm not sure the debate about whether or not one vote, one more comment, or one more letter will do anything is really an issue. I don't see that it has anything to do with the subject. If you feel strongly enough that it's the right thing to do, whether it's stop spending money or sending a letter, you should do it regardless. It seems like more of a personal decision to me. Even if I didn't think my one effort would matter, if I felt strongly enough about it, I'd still do it. I had a seriously bad experience at a particular restaurant and was angry at the way the manager handled (or more appropriately, failed to handle) the situation. I vowed to stop going to that restaurant, even though I liked it and it was convenient. I knew that my not going to that restaurant was going to have zero negative effect on the restaurant, but it was simply a matter of principle. I did what I needed to do to satisfy my own sense of what was right. I think that's the most anyone can do.

[Ghoulish Delight]

To a point, I agree with your restaurant analogy. There is a difference, though. I will admit that DLR has not degraded to the point that I do not enjoy myself there. It is still a special place for me. So for me to say "I'm not going anymore" is denying myself something I enjoy. And to do that, I have to feel a reason. I would really, really like to make a difference. With the restaurant, you had a particularly bad experience, so that's reason enough to not go. On top of that, it might be a little inconvenient, but you have other options. There are pleanty of other restaurants, not too far out of your way, with equal (well, possibly better) quality of service. There is only one Disneyland. Other theme parks, while I certainly enjoy them, do not offer the same kind of experience that Disneyland does. So it's all or nothing.

I absolutely agree that if your principles say something is the right thing to do, than do it. And the discussion about the importance of one vote should be irrelevant. But people like to use that as an excuse to justify not taking action, taking the easy road. So if that's their excuse, I, and GC and justagrrl are just trying to show how that logic might be flawed and a little self-defetist.

[Uncle Dick]

Originally posted by justagrrl
DOES ONE VOTE COUNT?

In 1645 one vote gave Oliver Cromwell control of England.

In 1649 one vote caused Charles I of England to be executed.

In 1776 one vote gave America the English language instead of German.

In 1839 one vote elected Marcus Norton governor of Massachusetts.

In 1845 one vote brought Texas into the Union.

In 1868 one vote saved President Andrew Johnson from impeachment.

In 1876 one vote made Rutherford B. Hayes President of the U.S.

In 1876 one vote changed France from a monarchy to a republic.

In 1924 one vote gave Adolf Hitler control of the Nazi party

In 1941 Just One Vote ... saved selective service, just weeks before Pearl Harbor.

*cough* (http://www.snopes.com/history/govern/onevote.htm)

I love the Urban Legends Reference Page. :D

[zapppop]

I must commend you for what you're doing. Personally, I couldn't do it. I continue to go not just because I love the park but also if Disneyland is getting worst I want to see exactly what is going on and complain in person. I know I could always write a letter and/or send an e-mail but I find it more fun to complain in person as well :D.
I'll miss both of you :(

[cstephens]

Originally posted by Ghoulish Delight
To a point, I agree with your restaurant analogy. There is a difference, though.

Oh, I know. I was only using the restaurant story as an example of when I did something that I knew would have absolutely no effect on the establishment but which I felt I needed to do on principle.

I agree with your other points.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Sigh. This will teach me to publically announce my convictions and plans.

Okay, so I'm having second thoughts. At this point, it's about 50/50 whether I'll renew. Why the waffling? Well, if I do renew, it is ENTIRELY because of the fact that over the past 6 months or so, we've ended up with some really good friendships with the people on Mousepad, and those friendships are kind of built on the foundation of visiting Disneyland. And while my belief that we all need to start voting with our wallets holds, I'm just not sure whether it's worth neglecting those friendships. And that would be the ONLY reason I'd change my mind. If CP and I had, for the past 6 months, just been visiting DLR to visit it alone, I could easily do without it. But the friends we've made are a pretty convincing argument to keep coming back.

Although I dare say that if people had shown more support, I would have been a little more inclined to stick to my guns. But I suppose I can understand the difficulty and reluctance of people to go the could turkey route. Well, duh, I'm going through the same dilemna.

I just wanted to get that out, so that if, come August, we do renew, no one starts calling me a hypocrite without knowing the full story.

ps. Besides, if we commit to boycotting DLR, how can we return to defend our Mouse Adventure status! :cool:

[cemeinke]

There are people out there that buy a single share of stock in companys whose practices they disagree with, just so they can have a voice, as a share holder, when it come time to discussing the Company's business.

Perhaps you could view your AP in a similar way. Yes you disagree with the practices, but if you use your AP to gain access to City Hall a few more times to let Disneyland know what's going wrong (or right), you might find you have a bit more influence than those who choose not to go at all.

Besides, we'd miss you guys - even if you do occasionally blow us off for certain TV programs :D

[EandCDad]

Originally posted by Uncle Dick

*cough* (http://www.snopes.com/history/govern/onevote.htm)

I love the Urban Legends Reference Page. :D

You are a man after my own heart.

GD- When the time comes to renew the pass, if you do it, that's probably a good decision, if you don't, that's probably a good decision too. You don't want to renew and feel guilty or not renew and feel guilty. I hate to say sentimental crap like this, but follow your heart on this one.

Tiggertail-if you haven't been in 10 years, you will find so many fun things to do and have so many memories on your trip. Even in Tomorrowland. Go with that attitude and you will be fine.

Just a side note: the only people who consider MousePAD overly negative are, I think, those who don't spend much time here. Anyone who spends much time here will see all kinds of posters. Those who are very negative about Disney and the state of the parks, those who have "stars in their eyes" everytime they go, and ALOT of people in between.

[RStar]

GD-

I don't think that buing an AP is realy giving the DLR doing alot for their pocket book (yes I know if you add 10,000 APs together it's a few$$$), but it's the money APs spend while there that they even offer them. Letting a person come in the gate for, let's say ten times in a year, ride the rides all day, and not spend one dime will accually cause them to LOSE money. So if you chose to get the AP, and not spend while there, don't spend at DTD, or the Disney Store, you will be just as succesfull. And you will have the City Hall access, and still meet your friends, and also have the option of doing as poorly as I did at Mad Scramble (or not quite as bad as I, but at least the choice will be yours!).

[Ghoulish Delight]

I am well aware that in all likelyhood my little boycott will not/would not have made a lick of difference. Although, I do believe being a stockholder, voicing my opinion would have at least made SOME impression (again, only with the support of others like me).

But no matter how I look at it, it just hurts to hand them money, even if I am "getting a good deal." Sure, I get access to city hall to voice my opinion, but it's like standing at the door of a place that I think is being run horribly, saying "I think you're running the place terribly, let me in!" Then hand them the admission price, go in, complain, leave, then come back, pay them again, rinse, repeat. Ugh, the cycle infuriates me as I describe it. I mean, we APers complain and complain at City Hall, but just hand over $200 a year without a second thought about it. What's the motivation to change anything? I just can't shake the feeling that I should not be giving my money to these creeps. But, at the same time, I can't shake the feeling that I'd feel depressed and defeated if these same creeps managed to drive me away from somewhere I love to be. It's just a sucky, sucky position to be in :mad:

[innerSpaceman]

Since I refuse to give up my Disneyland habbit entirely (after all, I have my MouseAdventure record to maintain as well - 4 games, no losses), my decision to buy an AP this weekend was really the lesser of two evils. After all, my whole reason for returning to AP status after a 5-year absence was to spend less money on Disneyland than I had been. I was averaging 4 times a year, mostly at full admission and parking. Now I will be using their facilities more times and giving them less money in return. I am one of those despicable APs who buys zero merchandise and spends miserly on food. While I would love to reduce my Disneyland spending to zero on principal, it just ain't gonna happen. It just so happens that buying an AP is a way for me to give Disney less financial support than I have been.

[Ace]

well, if you're going to have an addiction it's sure better than booze, gambling, or drugs.

[gn2dlnd]

Well, what if they added booze, gambling, and drugs? Oh, wait - that's Vegas.
( I now sense an imminent crack about DCA )

[Iceman]

Okay, I'll take the bait...

The only people who don't enjoy DCA must be on crack?

(Probably not what you had in mind, but hey... ;) )

[gn2dlnd]

Ha!

[zapppop]

There ARE other ways you can protest.
What I do is avoid making any purchases in the gift shops.
In the past, I would go to the gallery and purchase $500 framed lithographs and posters, buy special CDs, and other little trinkets; NOT ANYMORE :D Also, unless I'm with a group, I no longer dine in their restaurants or buy little snacks during the day.

and like I said before, COMPLAIN TO CITY HALL AND COMPLAIN OFTEN :p

[Iceman]

It has been very interesting to watch this thread evolve (and I mean that completely seriously)...

The problem with what you described, zapppop, is that the lithos and special CDs and whatnot is the merchandise WORTH buying! I agree that I won't buy the genericized "Disney Store-type stuff" at the parks. And they have some outstanding restaurants, better than elsewhere, that are worth the money. Of course that's just to me, and spending in a free market is a personal decision.

[zapppop]

Originally posted by gn2dlnd
Well, what if they added booze, gambling, and drugs? Oh, wait - that's Vegas.
not necessarily.
** 3 weeks ago, I saw people smoking Marijuana at the DCA gates
The Boardwalk games you pay to play are a gamble
and you can get booze with your meal near Cocina Cucamonga.

VIVA ANAHEIM!


** I reported those individuals to DLR security
because they didn't share :D

[zapppop]

Those lithographs and CDs are the more expensive products they offer. That's why I say don't buy them ( but, yeah, they do have some good stuff )

[Ghoulish Delight]

My problem is, I never spent that money. Part of my justification for buying my AP in the first place was a promise to myself (for budgetary reasons) to limit resort spending. So I try to eat before I go, and I NEVER (okay, almost never) buy merchandise. I'm one of the APers they don't like to begin with. They don't get much more than my AP purchase dollars.

[MonorailMan]

Let's See, we bought our APs and mom told me now don't spend much, in about 2 months I've allready spent:

$16.00 - Mickey Gloves
$6.75 - Mickey Ears
$24.00 - Sorcecer Mickey Hat
$5.00 - Churros
$60.00 - Monorail Set.
_____
$111.75 - Total.

There's 12 months in a year, so at this rate, thats $670.50 :eek:

I better work some more hours. :D

[JeffG]

Originally posted by zapppop
Those lithographs and CDs are the more expensive products they offer. That's why I say don't buy them ( but, yeah, they do have some good stuff )

With your decision not to purchase those items, is your intent to send Disney the message that those lithographs and CDs are overpriced or otherwise not a good value?

-Jeff