I still question your sources and their validity, but I have to say that I am very DISAPPOINTED with your opinion here.

"My opinion here? I say keep it closed and do the job RIGHT. That means really upgrading the ride system, using lap bars instead of over the shoulder restraints, increasing the log capacity, and doing something really smart here - improve the show inside a bit. Either add some new scenes, or a new drop inside to give visitors something new to experience."

Do the pubic, the theme park industry and all of us a favor and instead argue for these four points instead:

1. It is very important for Disneyland to have Splash Mountain open this summer. Guest expect it to be open and without it the park is missing a major attraction. If Splash Mountain is closed the park will be failing to deliver the experience that those visiting have come to expect. Disney attractions are expected to be operational during the summer and there should be no exceptions.

2. Why argue for restraints for a ride that has operated for more than ten years without serious incident that would make a case for adding restraints? Seriously, what is up with your comment?

It is very important that you argue against restraints for Splash Mountain. Protect the industry and our rights as amusment park enthusiasts. Don't let the lawyers, governement and courts regulate the design of our rides. Instead argue against them so we can preserve our right to enjoy a ride without being unncessarily restrained.

This isn't an issue about safety anymore, it is about the court system being out of control.

You also should be arguing against restraints since they reduce capacity. Which bring me to my next point.

3. You should instead make an argument that Disney should lead the way in California for a rider responsibility law so these unncessary changes to these rides do not have to be made. People need to ACCEPT RESPONSIBILTY FOR THEIR ACTIONS. It is sad that we must have a law to state that, but it is so necessary in our socity these days. You should be presuring the parks to seek protection under new laws.

4. Finally, stop making bad suggestions like add a new drop. While it might be nice its totally unrealistic. If they want to modify the ride path and design then they might as well just tear down the entire ride and start over. There is no reason for you to suggest changes that are going to keep the ride closed any longer than need be.

Thank you for reading my post.

[Moderator's note: vB code fixed to make text show up in bold correctly. -- Lani]

I think, ideally, Al is against the restraints going in at all. However, at this point, it is WAAAAY too late to try to stop the freight train of frivolous law suits and paranoid lawyers. So, knowing that arguing against the restraints is going to do nothing but cause Disney to put the cheapest/fastest solution in that would ultimately detract from the ride experience, he chose the next best option. I, for one, agree. Given the fact that the decission has already been made to add restraints, I would much prefer an extended down period for the ride allowing them to institute a system that would maintain the full ride experience, rather than slapping together the first thing off the top of their head that'll get the thing open by summer. This is one summer we're talking about, and one ride. It has not been unheard of for an E-ticket to be closed during summer season in Disney history. And, given the choice, I'd take the option of losing it for a summer so that it can be enjoyed properly in years to come.

Well put the both of you.

I would like to see a rider responsibility law. I read, probably here, that a autotopia worker got reprimanded for not adhering to safety guidelines that ultimately led to breaking her leg. Wouldn't it be great to see a guest reprimanded (i.e. fined) for doing stupid/dangerous things?

Originally posted by Mouse
Well put the both of you.

I would like to see a rider responsibility law. I read, probably here, that a autotopia worker got reprimanded for not adhering to safety guidelines that ultimately led to breaking her leg. Wouldn't it be great to see a guest reprimanded (i.e. fined) for doing stupid/dangerous things? I don't know about a fine (I think getting a leg broken is punishment enough), but definitely they need to start putting some responsibility on the individual. Namely, if you don't follow posted safety rules, the park should NOT be responsible. No more of this "well, it was possible, therefore it's their fault." I'm sorry, but it really shouldn't take a sign or a big piece of plastic to keep someone from sticking their arm out the side of a fast moving hunk of metal. But until such a change is made, I can completely understand where the lawyers are coming from. I don't blame Disney for this one, I blame stupid people, and stupid judges who allow the lawsuits to go forward. As long as someone can hit 'em up for millions of dollars because they were too stupid to stay seated on a ride, it will be worth it to Disney to add that idiot bar (err, lap bar), not matter how much it costs them in down time and attendance figures.

Originally posted by Ghoulish Delight
I blame stupid people, and stupid judges who allow the lawsuits to go forward.I blame the American court system, which allows lawyers to file frivolous lawsuits because there is no threat of punitive fines for doing so. I believe other court systems (in countries such as the UK) will fine the party doing the suing if the lawsuit is found to be, as you so nicely put it, "stupid." Since there is no thread of punishment, the sue-happy lawyers go on suing, hoping to hit a big lottery. You're right -- the abnegation of personal responsibility is a sad thing.

Originally posted by all4thx
I still question your sources and their validity, but I have to say that I am very DISAPPOINTED with your opinion here.

While I think your points are good for starting a discussion, keep in mind that Al doesn't participate on the boards, and that if you really want to make sure he sees your comments and if you want some chance of getting an answer from him (understanding how much mail he must get), you might want to email him directly with your comments.

And now, back to the discussion...




/cs

From all I've read on Al's posts, I feel secure in venturing to say that he is anti-restraints on Splash. But, in light of the fact that restraints of some kind are, unfortunately and so stupidly, almost guaranteed at this point, I agree with Al that those who want to deal realistically should lobby for reasonable restraints as opposed to over-the-shoulder restraints that will completely ruin the entire ride experience. That is not to say that idealists should not continue to lobby for no restraints on a ride that has not had a mishap for 10 years and in favor of gravity continuing to do the fabulous job it has done for the past 4 billion years on Earth.

If you are to take a pragmatic approach and capitulate to the installation of restraints, however, you might join with Al in hoping that they keep the ride closed long enough to do the proper construction that would allow for the installation of redundant but liability-protecting lap restraints. That would most likely mean widening the flume to accomodate the side-by-side seating of Florida and Tokyo's Splash Mountains. I'd rather the ride be down a year and be able to ride it again someday than have it be down for a few months, re-open with view obstructing, cranium-damaging over-the-shoulder restraints - in which case I will never go on the ride again and Splash Mountain will be yet another fond Disneyland memory for me. I'd hate to lose the log ride feeling and go to less thematic side-by-side seating, but better that than a bumper around my head. And if they're going to do major construction to widen the flume, they might as well add two more drops so that we can have the "five spine-tingling drops" that were falsely promised when Splash first opened in '89.

As for rider responsibility laws, there can be no such thing. Ever go into a parking lot or other establishment where there is a sign stating that the establishment is not responsible for damage or loss to your property? Well, signs notwithstanding, it's not true. You cannot legislate away negligence or liability. And, not to put too fine a point on it, Disney is not lawsuit-fearful, it's settlement fearful. They've never lost a lawsuit in their home venue of Orange County. All plaintiffs who have sued Disneyland in court have lost. That's not to say there haven't been substantial settlement monies paid out by the Company, especially in recent years with such well-publicized attractions as the Death Ship Columbia and Roger Rabbit's Car-Toon Crunch. You can have every guest sign a waiver as they walk under the train tracks, but everyone who gets hurt would still have a right to sue and would still get big bucks settling with Mickey out of court.

Originally posted by innerSpaceman
From all I've read on Al's posts, I feel secure in venturing to say that he is anti-restraints on Splash. But, in light of the fact that restraints of some kind are, unfortunately and so stupidly, almost guaranteed at this point, I agree with Al that those who want to deal realistically should lobby for reasonable restraints as opposed to over-the-shoulder restraints that will completely ruin the entire ride experience.

How can you say that?

How can you sit here and say that restraints are coming when NO REPUTABLE source has been able to confirm it. The park hasn't admitted to the change. No one has been able to say that some manager in the park is confirming it. No one has been able to say that a friend who works in the Team Disney building or in attractions managment is confirming it.

My point is I think it is a bunch of baloney still.

I at least can quote where my source is that says it is nonsense. Sure I cannot reveal her name, but a girl who is employed by WDI says that it is all nonsense. Now doesn't mean that she might be wrong, but at least there is a more reliable source for the information.

This is my point in posting here. People take Al Lutz's comments like they're the official word. It's annoying and its wrong. There are two sites reporting this garbage, yet neither can substantiate their statements with any credibility and that is a problem.

You know what tomorrow morning 8 a.m. I am calling Disneyland's main number and point blank ask. I want to hear their response. Then come Monday I am going to call the public relations office and ask.

I will report back with the results of my investigation.

You should know that those who answer Disneyland's phones are some of the very last people to know what's going on. Seriously. They aren't told plans until those plans are officially announced to the public for the very purpose of "plausible deniability."

You are welcome to your opinion of Al Lutz's degree of reputability. I think you are pretty off-base for attacking others for taking Al's word, however, because Al has a track record a lot longer than "a girl at WDI." There have been threads around here on MousePad where people tracked what Al got right and what he got wrong, and he's gotten an awful lot right. I'd also point out that some of the few things he's gotten wrong only LOOK that way in retrospect (he was right at the time, but then the company changed direction mid-course).

The tone of your post suggests that Al simply makes things up. This is not true. He does have sources, many of them in various positions. He's not about to reveal his sources, though, for the same reasons you won't say the girl's name, and that's understandable in both cases.

Let me post information placed by two different people on the Laughing Place discussion boards, that were discussing Al's last DIG update, here is the first "Westsider"...

"Tue 3/12/2002 11:14a: "Based on mere common sense, Splash will reopen before summer...I guarantee it!"

You want to bet themeparklover? Just a few hours ago out on the Rivers of America I had two managers talking about the new Mouseplanet update, after the Director of Attractions saw it this morning and was amazed at how much Lutz knew and how accurate his timetables were. I had to rush home and check out the Mouseplanet update to see what all the managerial fuss was about!

But according to our Westside Attractions managers, Splash Mountain will be closed up for the rest of '02 and hopefully be open by summer '03.

It's going to be bad enough to have Splash Mountain closed for Spring Break! We are already getting killed by angry Guests on semi-crowded weekends now. When the Spring Break throngs descend in two weeks, they are going to want to ride Splash Mountain! That's why the rehab was supposed to be done by March 22nd. It's going to be just as ugly in two weeks as it will be in July and August, trust me. And if they can keep a major E Ticket like Splash Mountain closed for Easter, something we've NEVER done before, then we can do it for summer too.

Thinking ahead to 2003, can you imagine what a big deal it's going to be when Splash Mountain finally reopens after a 15 or 16 month closure and the new Winnie the Pooh ride opens all at the same time? It's going to be HUGE!

I'll miss you Splash Mountain. You kind of had a crappy rotation to work in, and some dorky Leads to work for, but you were a great E Ticket Attraction. See you in 2003 Splash Mountain! Enjoy the rest."

The second is from Galaxie 500, a reported insider at either TDA or WDI, and who has an excellent past track record....

"Today's Mouseplanet update is basically accurate concerning the Splash Mountain scenario's currently being bounced back and forth. This is on the ultimate fast track however, and a decision should be made by Easter. Either Splash opens next Fall with shoulder restraints wedged into the current fleet of logs, or it opens in 2003 with all new larger ride vehicles and a much changed ride system. Regardless, Splash Mountain will be closed this summer.

After seeing a few things about the scale and scope of the project for the new ride vehicles and widened flume, an April, 2003 opening may be too optimistic. But then I can't blame them for being optimistic with the return date. No one really knew what we were getting into when this all started 30 days ago."

So, based on what Al, Westsider and Galaxie 500 are saying, I have a very strong feeling that your "girl" might be wrong.. (Her name isn't Marcie, by any chance...):D

Now as for the official response from Disney, I can do that myself "Splash Mountain is currently ongoing refurbisment and is tentatively schedule to re-open on May 25th." But of course, you always need to read the disclaimer "All information is subject to change without notice", and as noted in Al's article and by Galaxie, they are still trying to decide what to do, and how long the rehab might take, you won't see Disney changing its tune until they decide

Oh, I forgot, when you call Disney's Public Relations, be sure and ask when the "Winnie the Pooh" ride is scheduled to open, they will tell you no such ride is scheduled to be built at Disneyland at the present time....;)

Originally posted by Kevin Yee
You should know that those who answer Disneyland's phones are some of the very last people to know what's going on. Seriously. They aren't told plans until those plans are officially announced to the public for the very purpose of "plausible deniability."

You are welcome to your opinion of Al Lutz's degree of reputability. I think you are pretty off-base for attacking others for taking Al's word, however, because Al has a track record a lot longer than "a girl at WDI." There have been threads around here on MousePad where people tracked what Al got right and what he got wrong, and he's gotten an awful lot right. I'd also point out that some of the few things he's gotten wrong only LOOK that way in retrospect (he was right at the time, but then the company changed direction mid-course).

The tone of your post suggests that Al simply makes things up. This is not true. He does have sources, many of them in various positions. He's not about to reveal his sources, though, for the same reasons you won't say the girl's name, and that's understandable in both cases.

I will agree with your first comment that I should not attack the other users. It just angers me when people present rumors as facts.

Second, I would have far more respect for Al Lutz if he would follow the techniques used by reporters and put some substance around his uncredited sources. Tell it was an attractions manager or god forbid the popcorn operator that he frequents too much. That is my point.

At least I actually have the guts to actually point to the source, which does not.

Well, one thing I've noticed is is that alot of the other disney sites and frequenters of their boards seem to get the same insider info Al gets. They usually report it a bit quicker too (although Al may be checking the validity of the rumours beforing opening his mouth). For example, someone named "The Insider" on the laughingplace boards had posted the news about Splash on March 10th, whereas Al reported on the 13th. There was a difference in what was said though. The other dude says its not the lawyers, but the state demanding the changes. Either way

Originally posted by JoeCanadian
Well, one thing I've noticed is is that alot of the other disney sites and frequenters of their boards seem to get the same insider info Al gets. They usually report it a bit quicker too (although Al may be checking the validity of the rumours beforing opening his mouth). For example, someone named "The Insider" on the laughingplace boards had posted the news about Splash on March 10th, whereas Al reported on the 13th. There was a difference in what was said though. The other dude says its not the lawyers, but the state demanding the changes. Either way


Well I'm not going to debate the issue of Al being reliable however, "if" it were the state demanding the change then why isn't Knotts Berry having to install them on their flume/log ride? Or any of the other flume type rides? There is a boat ride at Marine World that the boat actually looks like the type at PoC that is open goes up an OPEN chain driven ramp around an OPEN extremely HIGH part of the track then drops down a steep incline, and has NO restraints other than hold on Nellie and they aren't closing that ride for restraints....so my money is on Al's report being the more accurate of the two

Suffice it to say Al's sources are high up enough that he has to purposely make some of the info vague lest it point to who he knows. He also doesn't post a thing unless he's gotten it from 3 sources. FYI: the popcorn vendor knows NOTHING. That kind of info comes from much higher up.... MUCH.

Don't believe me? Read back a few years in his updates, you'll see reports of things that have been said at meetings of the higher ups, including, for example, Paul Pressler reacting to something Al reported and that reaction getting back to Al and him reporting that as well in a subsequent update.

What I'm getting to is that if he gave even vague details about some of his sources, those vague details would be enough to pin it down to the actual person.

well... it is only one summer. I think they should make it so that, after the final drop, instead of going next to the ROA you float freely into it and, after you float all the way around, a CM with a hook catches you and puts you back in the ride.

One thing people seem to be forgetting in all this.

Splash Mountain has killed.

A 35 year old man became disoriented and exited his boat. On his way to an exit he tried to cross the flume by stepping on another boat. He fell and was killed.

This was at Walt Disney World.

Now it's true, this man wasn't thinking clearly. It has been reported that he had mental problems.

But you have to look at Disney's liability here.

What if it kills again? What if it's a child?

Say you're on the witness stand, you are Disney's Spokesperson and you are shown a picture of a child and asked this question:


So, even though you knew the ride had killed a guest, you decided NOT to install restraints? Yes or no?


I say, take the time and install the lapbars.

Originally posted by Kuzcotopia
One thing people seem to be forgetting in all this.

Splash Mountain has killed.

A 35 year old man became disoriented and exited his boat. On his way to an exit he tried to cross the flume by stepping on another boat. He fell and was killed.

This was at Walt Disney World.

Now it's true, this man wasn't thinking clearly. It has been reported that he had mental problems.

But you have to look at Disney's liability here.

What if it kills again? What if it's a child?

Say you're on the witness stand, you are Disney's Spokesperson and you are shown a picture of a child and asked this question:


So, even though you knew the ride had killed a guest, you decided NOT to install restraints? Yes or no?


I say, take the time and install the lapbars.

Wait, the WDW SM logs are side by side, so It's a completly diffrent thing! Yes, I would install restraints, but I would put in seat belts now, let the summer season flow through, then put in lap bars.

Originally posted by Kuzcotopia
But you have to look at Disney's liability here.

What if it kills again? What if it's a child?

Say you're on the witness stand, you are Disney's Spokesperson and you are shown a picture of a child and asked this question:


So, even though you knew the ride had killed a guest, you decided NOT to install restraints? Yes or no?


I say, take the time and install the lapbars.

I would say NO we did not install restraints because this was the case of a rider doing something they should not do. Get out of the ride midway through the attraction.

Now if someone were thrown from the ride that would be a different story.

Let's face it you can get out of a lap bar restraint if you try.

Restraints + water rides = not a good combo.

What if the keel boats had had restraints mmm? The only water ride I can ever remember having restraints was Tidal Wave at SFMM, and those boats are SO wide and SO flat bottomed that the risk of capsizing is next to nil.

Why doesn't Al ever chime in on topics like this?

Originally posted by dizneelover
Why doesn't Al ever chime in on topics like this?

Because he doesn't read the boards.

Originally posted by Hyperboy


Because he doesn't read the boards.

Well, that's somewhat disappointing. Does anyone know why? Doesn't he care about what his readers think?

Originally posted by dizneelover


Well, that's somewhat disappointing. Does anyone know why? Doesn't he care about what his readers think?
I believe it was Kevin Yee or some other Admin type person who said that Al likes to keep his sanity (and is very busy). :)

Originally posted by dizneelover


Well, that's somewhat disappointing. Does anyone know why? Doesn't he care about what his readers think?

Well the why is because he's very busy. And he totally cares about what his readers think! E-mail him and let him know! (Certain things from the boards are relayed to him, but he doesn't read or post here).