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LifelongAngelsFan
01-17-2002, 10:55 PM
LifelongAngelsFan answer to Mike Eisner's question as LAF existed DCA: "So, first time DCA guest, what did you think of Paul's and my new theme park?"

Now, I'm sure I'm one of a long line of people who have posted their misgivings about DCA. As a new member, I thought I share my first visit and express what I liked and didn't like. I get the impression that Disney is trying to address many of the shortcomings.

I visited DCA on November 20 with my wife and two girls ages 6 and 3. I wasn't in the park ten minutes before I said "can we go back to Disneyland!". The blaring rock music was giving me a headache. Hearing music that I can hear everyday on my AM oldies station didn't help me feel like I was in "...another world" Walt Disney.

In fact, this is the number one thing I disliked about DCA is it missed Walt's idea of "I don't want the public to see the world they live in while they're at Disneyland. I want them to feel they're in another world." His execution of this concept is a big part of the DL magic that is completely missing from DCA.

What struck me odd about DCA is the Walt created a recipe for building a delightful amusement park and the DCA concept seems to be trying to do the exact opposite of this recipe.

Fortunately, we escaped from the entrance to the Hollywood Pictures Backlot. This area was nicely themed and didn't have blaring rock music. We went on the Muppet 3D Movie attraction, which we really enjoyed. I miss the Muppets since they pulled it off the Disney Channel a couple years ago. We spent only a little time in HPB as there was very little for young children to do in the "land".

The number two thing I disliked about DCA is there is very few attractions for pre-school age children. Part of Walt's recipe was creating attractions that appeal to all ages. He wanted DL to be a place where young children, teenagers, parents, grandparents could all enjoy the park together. DCA seems like they are executing on a strategy along the lines of: "teenagers spend lots of money, so let's create attractions that they will like." Well, parents of young children spend a lot of money too...but they won't be spending it at DCA! On its current trajectory, DCA will soon be like Magic Mountain including all of its teenager gangs.

After the backlot, we visited Bountiful Farm and were astonished to see the compelling attraction of citrus trees. Now, you don't get to see a lemon tree everyday? Along with other "compelling" attractions such "Tortilla Maker", "Bread Maker", and get this...a Ferris Wheel. The county fair has more compelling attractions than DCA. In fairness, DL opened in 1955 with some real snoozers. Anyway, Disney has plenty of work replacing lame attractions with compelling ones ala the 1959 Matterhorn/Submarine voyage DL expansion.

Next, we ventured to Paradise Pier. Walt must be spinning in his you know where! He created DL as an alternative to carnivals with their barkers and seedy environment. Well, PP is his worst nightmare come true, complete with a Tattoo Parlor...yikes! What were they thinking? To boot, all of these attractions are lame. As mentioned earlier, my county fair has better than virtually all of these (e.g. Golden Zephyr, Orange Stinger). Knott's has better versions of CS and MB. If they are trying to execute on the "a park for teenagers" strategy, they have failed miserably. I hope PP becomes a "do over" like the original Tomorrowland.

Next, we visited the S.S. Trustworthy, which my girls really enjoyed. Kudos to McDonald's, who sponsors this attraction, for not smothering this with McDonald's characters. Instead, they created a kid-friendly, play area that was very fun and creative.

Next, we visited the Grizzly Peak. This area had delightful theming. My favorite part of DCA. My girls were too small for Grizzly Run, but this looks like a compelling attraction. A few more ones like this and DCA will have something! We also were too late for the Redwood Creek Challenge Trail, as it closes at dusk. Seems like a great attraction for kids ala Tom Sawyers Island.

Lastly, we passed by Condor Flats. We didn't have time to go on this attraction. I've heard that it is pretty good. One of the few custom attractions done for DCA.

We spent a little over four hours at DCA. Leaving I did have the sentiment of "I liked it better as a parking lot." My advice to Eisner would have been "wait until you have enough money to build a compelling park. Walt got away with opening DL incomplete because it was such a new concept people didn't know any better. People know and expect better than what DCA opened with and its reputation is now tarnished maybe forever."

DCA has plenty of potential. Simply giving the WED folks adequate budget should rectify all of my complaints.

Nigel2
01-18-2002, 12:09 AM
Well remember Disney Studios also got bad reviews when it opened, and it had less than DCA did. The thing that irritates me with most people who are slamming dca is that they aren't giving it any time to grow, they want it to rival disneyland. Yes we know they have too few family attractions, too many movies and so forth but they were still trying. If they didn't try there would have been no park and odds are the money still would have gone to WDW.

EandCDad
01-18-2002, 05:34 AM
LAF, It's great to read your thoughts about DCA. I agree with some of them and its always great to have another person in the mix, tossing out ideas. My girls are age 7 and 4 so we had some of the same issues as you. They both were tall enough to go on Grizzly River Rapids (but the 4 year old vowed "never again" after we got off) so we did that together along with California Soarin, Muppets, Superstar Limo, Blast, The animation building, and some of the PP rides.

We just added the park to our DL APs at almost no charge, so I'm willing to live with what I get out of it, which is a fun 3 or 4 hours. Everyone is going to be a little bit different in their expectations, good to hear about yours.

LifelongAngelsFan
01-18-2002, 06:58 AM
Originally posted by Nigel2
Well remember Disney Studios also got bad reviews when it opened, and it had less than DCA did. The thing that irritates me with most people who are slamming dca is that they aren't giving it any time to grow, they want it to rival disneyland. Yes we know they have too few family attractions, too many movies and so forth but they were still trying. If they didn't try there would have been no park and odds are the money still would have gone to WDW.

It is impossible to avoid the comparison with DL. Maybe that's not fair. They might have reduced the comparison by reducing the admission expressing that this is DCA version 1.0, as we say in the software industry. As a product manager, I have to solve this problem routinely (the tradeoff between time-to-market {park opening} and the number of features{attractions} at launch. For example, I'm about to release our company's equivalent to DCA. I had to decide what were the essential features that people really needed and did them in a way that illustrated a trajectory for the product that would conclude as a success. I expressed my fear about the DCA trajectory, as it appears to be headed toward being another Magic Mountain.

By the way, I went to DMS shortly after it opened and really liked it. Now, at that time I didn't have kids, so I wasn't as critical about family attractions. What they had there was well done. I think the difference is that DCA was done with a focus on cutting corners (e.g., off the shelf rides) from the budget while DMS focused on doing a few things well.

As I mentioned, I can see that Disney is trying to rectify most of the shortcomings. For example, what I've ready about Flick's Fantasy Faire here on MP sounds most encouraging. It seems like this will be very similar to ToonTown, which our family loves. It could easily be much better than ToonTown.

If the lame attractions get replaced with compelling ones, they turn down the volume on the blaring music. and add some new things like Tower of Terror and FFF, DCA should become quite successful.

LifelongAngelsFan
01-18-2002, 07:05 AM
Originally posted by EandCDad
LAF, It's great to read your thoughts about DCA. I agree with some of them and its always great to have another person in the mix, tossing out ideas. My girls are age 7 and 4 so we had some of the same issues as you. They both were tall enough to go on Grizzly River Rapids (but the 4 year old vowed "never again" after we got off) so we did that together along with California Soarin, Muppets, Superstar Limo, Blast, The animation building, and some of the PP rides.

We just added the park to our DL APs at almost no charge, so I'm willing to live with what I get out of it, which is a fun 3 or 4 hours. Everyone is going to be a little bit different in their expectations, good to hear about yours.

When my oldest was 4, she went on Splash Mountain for the first time. She protested "never again". Well, when we returned to DLR two years later this past November, can you guess what attraction she insisted on going first? Splash Mountain! It is now her favorite.

I'm glad to see Disney making ammends with DCA admission. We purchased a five-day Park Hopper, which makes going to DCA somewhat "free". I've also heard that they are $43 for a one-day, single park admission, which is the same admission to DL.

innerSpaceman
01-18-2002, 07:08 AM
I never get tired of saying it: I really did like the parking lot better. Excellent access to the Happiest Place on Earth (I could park within mere footsteps of the Disneyland entrance) is better than most other theme parks of the world, much less the mess that is DCA. Sure no park is a hit right out of the box, but the difference between DCA and every other Disney park is that the others all showed promise when they opened. They may not have been chock full of great attractions, but they displayed wonderful imaginarchitechture and had more compelling themes to build on than the theme of 'California.' I thought that MGM Studios had the most paltry theme imaginable - boy, was I wrong about that. The almost concurrent opening of DisneySea shows that a park can open with few attractions, but with excellent design, true beauty, and rich promise for the future. Disneyland guests are not tourist rubes, but the most discriminating theme park visitors in the world. It was a tragic mistake to try to foist DCA on this group.

sugarhigh
01-18-2002, 07:15 AM
maybe it's me but i like dca. i think it's a welcome escape (not literally but you get my point right?) from disneyland's overly cheery mood. i'm 20 and i know i can go on all the rides at dca which may make my view of the park different from someone w/ kids, but part of dca's charm is being like disneyland but not.

all the things i like about dca is what lifelong hates. i like walking around the pier and making fun of how they disney-ified the boardwalks of venice and balboa. the tattoo parlor especially made me laugh (as i am one of those tattooed freaks). the only thing i didn't like is bountiful farms. i'm from the cow town area where it's common to drive down the 15 and see all the lemon trees and cows. i think they needed to make it so it didn't seem so country bumpkin like. i feel sorta' insulted by that.

justagrrl
01-18-2002, 07:22 AM
My husband like DCA much better then D-land. The combination of beer and a roller coaster that goes fast/upside down really won him over. My daughter (7) is also a big Ca Screamin fan.
I admit, my first trip to DCA (Jan 2) was terrible. They were doing the rose bowl thing and I was really unhappy there. The endless bands up and down - having to get out of the way again and again - and then having part of the area blocked for the Regis show... it was a bad experience.

However, living so close, we've gone to DCA every Sunday - and once during the week (we'd go more often if it was open later). The experience was very different.

While I certainly agree that there's not much for the little ones to do - my son - who just made the 40" mark is doing just fine. Although, I've never ridden a merry-go-round so many times. His favorite is actually the ferris wheel (purple side is the best you know).

We've had a great time - especially at Opening time on Sunday morning - when hubby and daughter can ride the roller coaster and the "barf shield ride" (maliboomer) over and over and OVER again.

Loved the Soarin' ride - although they could have made the transition from scene to scene a little easier. The scents are a nifty addition.

Loved the Bug's Life show - really funny! I've never heard a theatre roar with laughter like I did when I saw that. have to see it again next time I'm there.


DCA has really grown on me. It's not the same sort of place as Disneyland - I can accept that. They can both be fun - in different ways.

By the way - if you get a Margartia - ask for the one with the Grand Marneir (sp?) mixed with 1/2 strawberry. (no salt) Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm......so delish!

I suspect I'll be there tonight drinking one. :D

Iceman
01-18-2002, 07:42 AM
I really do appreciate hearing these various viewpoints on DCA. I used to get annoyed by the negative comments, but I've come to respect those opinions, too. Personally, I liked DCA just fine. In fact, the more I think back on my visit the more I'm looking forward to going again. If I had only one day in Anaheim, I would spend it at DCA (as I did last time) rather than Disneyland. Disneyland is fun, too, but it's kind of like when I lived in Central Florida and had annual passes to WDW--the Magic Kingdom was far and away the park I visited least.

DCA is not Disneyland. It was not intended to be a copy, or even to have the same design goals. Others have expressed my view pretty well--that DCA is pretty darn good for what it is, and we can expect that Disney will continue to improve it as time goes on. And I don't miss that parking lot one iota...

EandCDad
01-18-2002, 08:01 AM
Originally posted by LifelongAngelsFan


When my oldest was 4, she went on Splash Mountain for the first time. She protested "never again". Well, when we returned to DLR two years later this past November, can you guess what attraction she insisted on going first? Splash Mountain! It is now her favorite.


The funny thing is, the 4 (almost 5) year old is really the more outgoing one. But the older one is more willing to try the "scarier" theme park rides. When the 4 year old gets a little older, I think she is going to be a ride maniac. I think she is just going through a phase.

blusilva
01-18-2002, 09:03 AM
<?2?<rÿ??riginally posted by Nigel2 [/i]

Well remember Disney Studios also got bad reviews when it opened, and it had less than DCA did.

You mean Disneyland? I'd be interested in the statistics here. I thought that Disneyland itself had quite a few more attractions when it opened.

Not to mention the fact that it was something the world had never, ever seen before. As opposed to DCA which looks like a miniature golf version of Six Flags Magic Mountain.


The thing that irritates me with most people who are slamming dca is that they aren't giving it any time to grow, they want it to rival disneyland.

You can't not take into consideration that the Disney company has 40 some odd years of experience behind them in the Theme Park business. Of course anything they build now should rival Disneyland. It should surpass Disneyland.

And considering that they've been charging the same to get in to DCA as to get in to Disneyland, I really don't think that patrons should be expected to "give it time to grow" . Unless it grows while they're in the park.



Yes we know they have too few family attractions, too many movies and so forth but they were still trying. If they didn't try there would have been no park and odds are the money still would have gone to WDW.

I will never understand this line of reasoning. It lacks all logic. Disney shouldn't get "points for trying". Disney, up until very recently, was considered the industry leader in theme park design; for them to have created and built a park so unfit in theme for the area and so bereft of anything appealing to the audience from the park across the esplanade is just disgraceful.

Furthermore, I don't understand the "a bad park is better than a parking lot" reasoning. I don't care if there would have been no park. I didn't want this park in the first place. There was no need for it. And at least in the old parking lot, there was a tram to pick you up a few steps from your car. I genuinely miss the old parking lot.

And before you say it, let me: this does not mean I would have automatically hated anything they put in there. I would have welcomed a park that was appropriately themed (i.e. not an idealized version of the place I live and work every single day of my life) and built to the standards of Walt Disney.

So, try another tactic. This argument doesn't hold any water at all.

zapppop
01-18-2002, 04:01 PM
blusilva
Nigel2 is referring to the Disney MGM Studios in Walt Disney World. They had only 6 attractions when they opened.

I heard bad things about DCA before it ever opened but decided to try it out and be fair. I was disappointed at the lack of attractions and over all design of the park. Just not very magical; not even after a couple beers and a spin on California Screamin' ;). It felt like a lazy attempt to get me to spend more money. I got bored and went back to Disneyland. I was disappointed.....and then they shove the Main Street Electrical Parade in there......now I'm ****ed. If it weren't for DCA, MSEP would be in DL right now. I'm glad DCA is a failure. Maybe people like Pressler will learn that you can't be cheap when building a Disney theme park.

DCA has potential but Disney needs to cough up some money so the people at WDI can create some awesome rides.

Nigel2
01-18-2002, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by blusilva


And at least in the old parking lot, there was a tram to pick you up a few steps from your car. I genuinely miss the old parking lot.



As Zap noted I was refering to Disney MGM (they are going to drop the MGM part) Studios.

(It didn't pick up the part about surpassing disney in the quote) But if they built a park that surpasses disneyland now odds are it would have the problem that IOA had, not returning a profit for a very long time (have they returned one yet?) I seriously have to say TDS had a fluke/got lucky with the profit in 6 months, especially with the economy and all.

I have to say there is one major perk to having a covered parking structure...During the summer you can park your car and when you return it isn't as hot as an oven and your seat belt isn't a branding iron.:D

I am over the trams since the only time I use them is when its too hot to walk back to the sturcute.

sugarhigh
01-19-2002, 05:02 AM
Originally posted by Nigel2




I have to say there is one major perk to having a covered parking structure...During the summer you can park your car and when you return it isn't as hot as an oven and your seat belt isn't a branding iron.:D


unless you're on minnie. minnie 1b. that sucks.

for a characture of california dca is good. they need a ghetto though. my friends and i think there is too much cheesy clean happiness there. there needs to be a ghetto, maybe 2. like downtown la ghetto with a ride like "drive by getaway" then one for the inland empire. something like..."white trailer trash turmoil" a dark ride dealing w/ the ie's white trash problem. i am only partially kidding.

Cadaverous Pallor
01-19-2002, 10:48 AM
Ok, we've all discussed these issues before, but opinions and viewpoints change, so I'm glad this came up again.

The more I go there, the more I like DCA. GD and I are in our twenties and we don't have kids, so admittedly, we are the market that DCA is geared for. I wouldn't take small children there. I've seen too many kids squirming in their seats during show after show.

But there's something so laid back about DCA that I'm really starting to dig. Maybe it's just because there are less kids there and less people period, but I can't quite put my finger on it. Grizzly is a thing of beauty, Soarin' is amazing every single time, Screamin' is pretty passable at night (I'm a coaster freak and would prefer 6 loops and 75 mph, but hey, it's Disney), and the live music has a more modern, fun edge. After a while of listening to the ragtime at Coke Corner or the swing band at Carnation, I like cleansing the palate with some jazz or rock.

And the prefab rides are FUN, darnit! The Maliboomer and Mulholland make me scream every time, and the Stinger and Sun Wheel make me grin.

The lake is beautiful at night, with the lights reflecting colorfully. The food is great. Millionare and Blast are addicting! Muppets and Bug are silly and fun once in a while!

Look, there are some good points in this thread. Blusilva is right - a theme park conglomerate gets no "points for trying". Admittedly, taking a theme that goes against a lot of what their founder started building theme parks for is pretty counterintuitive. But let me say that Paradise Pier has done what it tried to do - be the cleanest, nicest, most Disney-fied carnival you could ever find.

Given the choice, I would've taken a stateside DisneySea, but that doesn't mean that DCA totally sucks.

my tuppence :D

Iceman
01-19-2002, 01:32 PM
Yeah, what CP said. :D

LifelongAngelsFan
01-19-2002, 02:12 PM
Even though I liked it better as a parking lot, DCA far from "totatly sucks". As I mentioned, it has several extremely well themed touches, especially Grizzily Peak.

One thing they should have done is have plans and drawings ready of the "5 Year Plan" for DCA. This would help address the "DCA 1.0" aspect of the park.

I like the idea that DCA isn't trying to copy DL...the WDW Magic Kingdom tried that and failed. The park's theme has plenty of potential. My beef is they didn't let the Imagineers have the budget and reign to properly executed their designs.

I can see the opportunity of doing a carnival well. What Walt didn't like about carnivals was that they were dirty, the rides were dangerous, and the staff was sullen, often nasty. Having recently attended several carnivals in Western Washington, things haven't changed much in over 50 years.

Having one of the lands in DCA as an ideal carnival, especially one of the classic beachfront carnivals like the Long Beach Pike, has potential to deliver a very fun experience. The carnival format allows more rides per square foot to be placed in DCA. My largest issue with PP is they didn't put in more, hair-raising, stomach-churning rides. The type of rides that teenagers and young adults crave (some us older Adults crave these too!). Maybe someday they will replace Golden Zyphyr and Orange Stinger with rides with more of an edge. The few of these style rides (e.g., CS, MB) weren't state-of-the-art compared to ones found a few miles away.

Come to think of it, I had heard that Pressler's idea for DCA was creating a park that was tuned for adults, with plenty of dining and shopping. I was a little surprised to discover that the shopping and dining experience was similar to DL (which is excellent). Actually, DTD seems more like Pressler's orgininal concept and I think DTD was very well done.

Anyway, I have faith that Disney will address the shortcomings and some day DCA will be as popular as DL. Combined with DTD, the DLR will become quite successful.

JPirate23
01-19-2002, 05:00 PM
I really love DCA!!! But if U don't like it, JUST DON'T GO!!!!
go to disneyland. OK???

Nigel2
01-19-2002, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by sugarhigh


unless you're on minnie. minnie 1b. that sucks.


Oh yeah, but oddly I think they only park people up there during the summer anyway.:D

It use to be one of the first levels they filled but I guess people complained since all the other levels weren't used. Now they fill up half of a level and close it.

cemeinke
01-20-2002, 01:13 AM
I have to agree with Cadaverous that the park is starting to grow on me and I'm not sure why. I know I like the food there better. And when I go things are at a more relaxed pace. There are rides I like to keep going on, but I enjoy sitting or wandering about soaking in the live entertainment.

Maybe Disney just needs some time to decide what it wants to do with this park. It has a different feel, but it's not very well defined (to me at least). I'm also very curious to see how this park develops over time.

In other words, I'm fine with the Parking structure--I prefer DCA to the old lot.

LifelongAngelsFan
01-20-2002, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by JPirate23
I really love DCA!!! But if U don't like it, JUST DON'T GO!!!!
go to disneyland. OK???

JPirate, you name isn't Paul by chance?

The trouble with this "let them eat cake" attitude is the park is failing misearably measured by it's way below its attendance projections. Consequently, the park is in risk of failing financially and thus you will no longer have the park you really love.

Pressler and DCA marketing executives really missed the market. His concept of a park tuned for teenagers and adults is what we in the marketing profession call an "inside out" idea, meaning someone inside the company (Paul Pressler) decides what the people outside the company that make purchasing decisions (the So. Cal. Disney theme park clientele) wants for a product/service (theme park). Inside Out is the number one reason for failed new products and services. DCA is a classic inside out service.

The market is saying loud and clear that DCA doesn't cut it. Now, Pressler can decide to continue to ignore this "If you don't like, go to DL". This trajectory just leads to continued under performing, 1 Billion dollar theme park that is bleeding red ink, which will get Disney stockholders angry and drive stock price down. Eventually, stock holders will either sell Disney to another company, or kick Eisner and Pressler out on their ear.

Or, Pressler can recognize his mistake and fix it.