Bill and I don't have all that much time to try and keep everybody behaving right now and I certainly can't dedicate the time you all are requiring of me.

So, for at least a few days, we're done with the gay topics. I know it is a point of pride for innerSpaceman to see one or more at the top of the page at any given time.

And I know it is a point of pride for many others to sit in a circle beating each other around the head and shoulders with mildly cushioned bludgeons.

I know you all are capable of doing these topics correctly, you certainly have before.

But we're done with it for a little while. Take a breather, discuss other things.

cludgeon?

Originally posted by Ghoulish Delight
cludgeon?


It's a club that bludgeons.

Now is seriously not the time for a spelling flame.

Hey, he's already got two words to choose from (bludgeon, cudgel). No fair making up a new one.

Alex, you posted while I was composing....didn't mean to get your ire, just trying to lighten the mood

If we discuss Barbra Streisand or Madonna, is that violating the ban or isn't it?

How 'bout musical theater?


Actually, I think a break is not a horrible idea.

I just hope the hiatus is over before we have to get ready for Gay Day. (Oh, that's months from now, isn't it). Well, then, um, the Massachusetts thing in May is bound to garner some national (and Pad) attention.


In the meantime, may I respectfully suggest considering a more permanent solution that involves addressing the problems of those whom only a moderator can name vs. otherwise unnecessary actions affecting a gaggle of padders who can discuss things like adults if unassaulted by an under-the-bridge dweller.

I actually agree with Alex about this.

The discussion over homosexuality seems to be going on for months now and it's reached a point where the discussions in the new threads are no different than the ones in the older threads.

Gay topic = dead horse

Originally posted by Alex Stroup
Now is seriously not the time for a spelling flame.

I wasn't flaming you. I would never do that.

I often say Gradel for Gravy Ladle, so it made sense to me.

Let's be well behaved, guys, until after MA. The whole MP team must be freaking right now. I know I would be.

(That's isn't to say it's a free for all after MA) :p

Let me be honest here, innerSpaceman.

We've been letting you all piss in your own pool here. We've been watching a group of long-time padders try to get their way by provoking behavior out of others they don't like so that they can stand there and point and say "what are you going to do about it!" A certain group of self-appointed community protectors are trying to force us into doing what they think we should have already done.

It is a classic game of five year old siblings in the back seat saying "he touched me!"

If we do what you're asking, you aren't going to like all the names that go.

Now, right now I really don't care what you think I or the rest of the moderators should be doing. I've said how it is going to be for a few days. You can live with it or not.

Hey, I'm fine with it.

a) My bf said it very well. Dead horse.

b) Some of us who know better should have done a better job of keeping things under the boiling point, what with MA around the corner, plus a major software upgrade this weekend. It was a tad inconsiderate not to take this into consideration.

c) There's nothing wrong with a time-out. Just ask Snow White.

Actually, I thought the new, "no-religion" thread was covering some new ground, and even the one prior covered some "moral lines" ground.

But I'm glad about this - I'll be unavailable for a few days and I'd have never caught up on them.

Alex, enough already. It is simply not necessary to single InnerSpaceMan out on this. If you are holding some sort of grudge against the long time padders, then why don't you just ask us all to leave. That should make the boards a much better place!?!?

I take real offence at your top of the Lounge thread and think that it sets a very negative tone for MP. If you want to take a breather from Gay threads, then say so, but don't blame it on InnerSpaceMan.

As usual, Alex hits the nail on the head.

Originally posted by dustytraveler
Alex, enough already. It is simply not necessary to single InnerSpaceMan out on this.

I don't feel I've singled out innerSpaceman. Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned him in the first post. I don't blame him for the threads, after all he isn't the one who starts them (as a general rule). He has simply expressed many times his pleasure that there presence.

I replied to him because he is the one who spoke up. And I very specifically wrote my response so as not to apportion any specific blame to him.

I'm glad your offence is real. Faux offence is emotionally draining without providing any solid comfort. Cherish it.

I'm not Alex, and I am not going to try to speak for him, but I am going to add my own 2c here.

This has nothing to do with singling out ISM or driving off long-term padders. This has everything to do with keeping the boards from turning into a massive flame pit.

At the time Alex put this topic on hiatus, there were three active Gay-themed threads. A fourth was closed a week ago, after I put it on hiatus just to to try to curb the name-calling that was going on there. While each of these threads had some modicum of intelligent discussion and debate, ALL of them featured unabashed name-calling and flame baiting, both by newer members and long-term padders who definitely know better by now.

At the same time, there's another thread going where these same long-term members who definitely know better by now are complaining that there's too much moderation on the boards. And another where the *very same people* are asking why the moderators haven't done something about the people they think are being trolls.

You can't have it both ways people. Either the moderators MODERATE according to the published Community Policies, or we don't. We will not selectively apply the rules just to those members who *bug* the other members, ESPECIALLY when those other members are breaking the EXACT SAME RULES.

As the moderators have said to several people in recent months, "offend first, and apologize later" is not the way to live on these boards. You ALL know the rules. And yet there are several people here who deliberately break them when they feel it's justified, and then post an "I knew better" after the fact. If you know better, don't do it.

The mods do not have time for this. And before anyone else tries to make excuses for us, this has NOTHING to do with MouseAdventure or the upcoming server upgrade. This has only to do with the current rash of rule breaking from several handfuls of members.

Moderating this mess - dealing with the flood of "reported posts" from people who poke and don't like the results, trying to keep tabs on exactly how many times poster X has called someone a name, trying to write the warnings so we don't kick people off without giving them a chance to play nice - is taking too much time. And it's pointless, because there are people here who are hell-bent on keeping the rancor going until they get the results they want.

I'm personally of the opinion that certain posters be allowed to remain on these boards so that the other members learn to deal with "under-the-bridge dwellers" by ignoring them, not poking them. Ought to be an interesting learning curve.

We set up MousePad to be self-moderating. Here are the rules, please abide by them, here's the button to tell a moderator if someone if violating them. I for one *liked* being able to be a member of the community myself, and having time to read the threads I enjoyed. Now we all spend too much time reading threads we'd rather not just to make sure that the poking doesn't get out of hand, and it's hard (for me at least) to participate as a member when I know it's just a matter of time before I have to get involved in an official capacity.

In the end, MousePad is what YOU make of it. And that is the global you, not singling anyone out. If people are going to behave in a way that they KNOW is going to bring a moderator down on them, it's disingenuous to act surprised when there is a lot of moderator intervention.

I feel like a cheerleader for the Ignore feature, but people - USE IT. And if you can't, don't blame the moderators when we take action. MousePad is what YOU make of it.

AVP

What AVP said.

I want to be like Alex and AVP when I grow up...

Adrienne

Just some observations from a user's perspective:

1. I've been using the Ignore feature in this particular occasion. It works great...until someone quotes the ignored person. Then it just comes down to not reading threads, which cuts out a HUGE portion of MP these days.

2. There's been a lot of discussion about not poking "those who cannot be named who live under a bridge". It was my understanding that "trolling" was not allowed on this board. Even mods have referred to certain people as "pokable" (as in a troll). I guess I have a disconnect here. If there are no trolls allowed then no one can get in trouble for poking a troll. They would've been suspended long ago.


I really love MP and spend a lot of time here. I would prefer the boards to be "troll-free". That would sure make my experience more pleasurable.

Several days ago, we were talking about leaving MP behind for awhile. Both of us were feeling that this social group that we love was providing more agitation that pleasure. I was more willing to give it time to improve than my other half. As usual, he was probably right.


Things change. That's cool. But, for whatever reason, they've been in a slump for a while. Believe me, I understand the difficulties all of you are facing. MP takes up a lot of time and does not provide much financial return. I just hope that things can get better - for all involved in this community. I'll do what I can to help that along.


Good luck, guys.

Not Afraid - everytime I read your sig. line I could swear it says: Say it slower and with more insanity.



:)

I like MP. I like the people that post here. I like the agreeing. I like the disagreeing. No one else I know ever argues...er...debates - discusses many of these things. Or, if they do, it's not with nearly the different number of viewpoints and thoughts that come into play. I've certainly learned to try and be more understanding of others viewpoints - although I also learned that ignore is my friend. ;)

Sorry it's causing the mods trouble though.

Originally posted by justagrrl


Not Afraid - everytime I read your sig. line I could swear it says: Say it slower and with more insanity.



There are times in my life when that would be appropriate - like now!:rolleyes:

Not quite. Just because you (to quote an older incident, that is a generic you, not specifically you, Not Afraid) feel someone is a troll doesn't mean we think they are a troll.

The behavior we're seeing is users decided that someone is a troll who shouldn't be here. So they go after that person at every opportunity, trying to drive them to behavior that will get them banned.

Do we already think the target posters are borderline? Perhaps, but we aren't happy to see people trying to push them over the edge.

We've always tried to hold off on the ban button. In our experience if left to themselves, many of the people that come barging in too strong initially will quickly learn to live within the guidelines and can become quality members of the board.

But, in our opinion, it has recently developed that when it is decided by members that a user shouldn't be here, they're going to do their best to make sure we have no choice but to remove that person.

Originally posted by Alex Stroup
The behavior we're seeing is users decided that someone is a troll who shouldn't be here. So they go after that person at every opportunity, trying to drive them to behavior that will get them banned.


I can't speak for everyone here, but I know a few people's response is to argue the point that the "not a troll" is making. For me, personally, I will counterpoint anyone who says things that I find disgusting. I have a few strong issues that I will always defend, and that stems from personal experiences. On certain issues, I will respond if I am baited. (And that was happening a lot). That's life with hot topics. There were plenty boarders that were crossed, insults that were made and, yes, I reported certain responses that were over the line.

Others may have different viewpoints on what was going on.

I can see your viewpoint of the situation, however I don't believe that can be blanketed over a whole group of people. Each individual had their own response.

I can thing of one occasion where there was a group effort to bring some attention to the situation. It obviously did not have the effect the person was going for. Oh well.


I actually appreciate you even responding when you must be crazy with MA. Do me a favor and arrange cooler weather while you're at it. I know you have time to do THAT!
;)

Originally posted by Not Afraid
I've been using the Ignore feature in this particular occasion. It works great...until someone quotes the ignored person. Then it just comes down to not reading threads, which cuts out a HUGE portion of MP these days.
Oh, isn't this the ironic truth! Since the select group of people on my Ignore List are among the most infamatory padders, they are constantly quoted and I find the Ignore function to be practically useless where it is most needed.

I frankly don't see my encouragement of others to use the Ignore function to alleviate this situation as going over the line, though I do perceive it as pushing the envelope a bit. If a person is going to be so inflammatory as to be constantly quoted by others and take up entire threads engendering responses to a flame campaign, then the Ignore function of one padder is simply not enough.

In this regard, I am a bit disturbed by the following quote from a moderator in this thread:
Originally posted by AVP
I'm personally of the opinion that certain posters be allowed to remain on these boards so that the other members learn to deal with "under-the-bridge dwellers" by ignoring them, not poking them. Ought to be an interesting learning curve.
I hope this was just a pensive hankering, and not an expression of policy.


Anyways, I think the hiatus is a fine tool.

We've got a really contentious presidental election campaign season coming though - - so hatches should probably be better battened down.

Originally posted by Alex Stroup
Not quite. Just because you (to quote an older incident, that is a generic you, not specifically you, Not Afraid) feel someone is a troll doesn't mean we think they are a troll.

The behavior we're seeing is users decided that someone is a troll who shouldn't be here. So they go after that person at every opportunity, trying to drive them to behavior that will get them banned.

Do we already think the target posters are borderline? Perhaps, but we aren't happy to see people trying to push them over the edge.

We've always tried to hold off on the ban button. In our experience if left to themselves, many of the people that come barging in too strong initially will quickly learn to live within the guidelines and can become quality members of the board.

But, in our opinion, it has recently developed that when it is decided by members that a user shouldn't be here, they're going to do their best to make sure we have no choice but to remove that person.


I have been on many boards and have talked to more then a few moderators, but I never have known anyone to pick up on what is going on and why it’s going on like you just did.

You put into words what many of us know is the case but would not or could not say. I hope all of us who read this learn a bit about who we are and why we do what we do on MP.

Oh, but you have a lot to learn about Pizza...... Alex

;)

I hope this was just a pensive hankering, and not an expression of policy. Well, let's discuss it. If you feel that someone is a troll, you have several options - ignore the troll, poke the troll, or learn to live with the troll.

Right now, it appears to the moderators that a certain group of people have determined that certain posters are trolls, and are doing everything they can to bring the situation to a head so as to get said troll(s) banned.

As Alex said, just because *YOU* think someone is a troll, (and that's the global you), it doesn't follow that said person is a troll. Inflammatory? Yes. Possessed of wretched debate skills? Perhaps. Trollish? That remains to be seen - by THEIR posting behavior, not yours.

Mind you, this is NOT the first time we have seen this happen here. I can name three specific incidents where a group of members have determined that someone needs to leave MousePad, and they have done everything - including blatantly dancing over the line - to goad that other person into behavior that got them suspended.

Personally, I would hate to be on the wrong side of a group like that, (good thing I'm a mod), and I don't think such behavior from long-time posters makes this board any friendlier than the lenient moderating policies some advocate.

This is real life - there are people who are going to annoy the heck out of you. You can ignore them, try to make their lives so miserable they leave, or you can agree to co-exist. Until they violate our policies, they have as much right to be here as do you. And if your coping technique involved pushing them to get themselves banned, I suggest that you learn another one. There's been a lot of discussion about not poking "those who cannot be named who live under a bridge". It was my understanding that "trolling" was not allowed on this board. Even mods have referred to certain people as "pokable" (as in a troll). I guess I have a disconnect here. If there are no trolls allowed then no one can get in trouble for poking a troll. They would've been suspended long ago. I've allowed myself to lapse into using certain naming conventions, so let's say this. Poking MEMBERS is not allowed. Regardless of whether you (the global you) think they are a troll or not.

There is not a specific community policy against trolling. It falls under the "In other words, don't be a trouble-maker" clause. AS DOES baiting another member. And, as Alex has said before, if we were going to go out and suspend / ban members for infractions of that policy in the recently-closed gay-theme threads, the board membership would look a WHOLE LOT different than it does now.

Disagreeing with other members does NOT in and of itself invoke the "troublemaker" label. If you can have an intelligent conversation with other members without resorting to name-calling or other tactics ("knowingly false and/or defamatory, libelous, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, threatening, an invasion of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law"), then you can post 100 times a day to argue your point.

If you can't, and you violate our policies, we will take action. And as MANY of you already know, that action most often happens behind the scenes, and allows for second, third and sometimes fourth chances. We also give little credibility to the "but s/he started it!" defense.

If you don't think the moderators are handling a situation correctly, the FIRST course of action is to PRIVATELY contact a moderator, detail the violations YOU perceive, and then let us handle it. We won't discuss another member with you, and we won't necessarily agree with you, but at least we'll know what you see. And you may see something that we don't. There are 12 of us, and thousands of posts each day. Again - this board is supposed to be self-moderating. If you see something, report it. But try to make sure that your own side of the street is clean.

Public "ignore" campaigns against a certain member, or the vigilantism we've seen repeated in MousePad history, are NOT the most effective means of communicating with the moderators.

AVP

Originally posted by Not Afraid
Then it just comes down to not reading threads

This works really well for me.