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AVP
01-09-2004, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by ToursbabeC3po
How does this keep someone, who is trying to cheat the system, from renting a wheelchair and getting one?

IF you have a wheel chair and a pass you still have to wait in the wheelchair accessible lines.... Off the top of my head, I can think of 3 rides that actually have wheelchair accessible queues:

Indy
Roger Rabbit Cartoon Spin
Autopia (1/2 of it, at least)

There may be more - it's almost midnight, so I'm a bit foggy. But this isn't DCA we're talking about - the majority of the lines are not wheelchair accesible. So renting a wheelchair allows you to bypass the regular queue for almost every other attraction. NOT that this is a bonus - the accessible lines for Space Mountain and Pirates are a nightmare - but there is a pretty decent incentive to cheat the system. Meanwhile, some people with legitimate needs are turned away at the steps of City Hall. Disney has a long way to go to make this system work.

AVP

adriennek
01-09-2004, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by ToursbabeC3po
IT depends on what your daughters specail need is on how the park will accomidate her....IF for instance she can not be in the sun then we would only make you wait in the part of the line that is not in the sun.....Every need is differant that is why there is nothing set in stone......

This is not about you personally as a CM, but if I actually saw this happening at DLR, I'd have more faith. But when I hear/read personal experiences, I have no faith in the current system at all.

Reading JT's post makes me sad but makes complete sense to me. If I were JT, I'd have no reason to believe that anything would be done to accomodate my child's needs, no matter what those needs are.

Adrienne

kflo
01-09-2004, 11:47 PM
this is based on what I have heard about the SAC... if you lets say can't be in the sun, they will not issue you a pass... they'll tell ya the rides that are the busiest with the lines in the sun.. I had someone tell me that yesterday. along with IBS(irritable bowel syndrome) your place can be saved in line... My father has a knee injury that deters him from walking the resort... It is sad that my father can't go to the resort and go on the rides he used to with the SAP, even if he has a wheelchair he'd still have to wait in the line... Now you may say well he is sitting, that is great but he is still in the pain... He'd rather be able to do the 3 or 4 rides he enjoys in the least amount of time and then go home. So with those of you who feel as a victim of not being able to get the SAC, I understand and so does my father...

ToursbabeC3po
01-10-2004, 12:06 AM
all of DCA is wheelchair accessible it had to be because it was made after the ADA law was past at Disney Indy, pooh, Jungle, most of star tours, Autopia, Honey, Astro, new space moutain, most of matahorn, roger rabbit and the new Buz ride are all wheel chair accessable......

SteveSatch
01-10-2004, 12:09 AM
My family went to DL today for the first time since the change. We we unaware it had changed. My four year old son is deaf, has sensory integration disorder, and A.D.D. He simply can't wait in line like everyone else. He's the one going nuts in line ****ing everyone off. DL is his favorite place to go. I was shocked to be told that if he was in a wheelchair he could get a pass. What kind of person thinks that only people in wheelchairs are disabled? Endurance issues can be made OK with wheelchairs? My son could never sit still in a wheelchair. No way this changes abuse. Show up in a wheelchair and you're good to go. Show up deaf and unable to wait in line and they squash you.

The Mouse Is Back
01-10-2004, 02:01 AM
I looked at the update page for DLR, and it was stated that at some point Fast Pass use will be required for those with SAC.

Somebody please explain this?

The FP lines are not that short or fast lately, I have observed, so will there still be a front of line access for some guests? Depending on their disability and situation?



-Allegra-

poohbunnieshutch
01-10-2004, 05:16 AM
Originally posted by The Mouse Is Back
I looked at the update page for DLR, and it was stated that at some point Fast Pass use will be required for those with SAC.

Somebody please explain this?

The FP lines are not that short or fast lately, I have observed, so will there still be a front of line access for some guests? Depending on their disability and situation?



-Allegra-

This is the problem, the SAP/SAC is designed to make a ride accessible for those with disabilities. NOT A FOTL PASS. And until the ablebodied understand that, then the disabled will still be considered of getting special treatment, when the reality is that a SAP/SAC only makes the ride accessible to those who cannot access it through the regular ques.

Right now, you need to be in a chair, a walker or use a cane to get a SAP and they write which type of assistance you are using to prevent you from sharing the pass with anybody or ditching your mobility device. But even that is far from perfect.

I use a ECV for my mobility issue (my very own, not rented). The Peter Pan exit as well as the line, is not very chair friendly and even less ECV friendly. There is no place to turn around and if you have more than one chair or ECV in there at one time, then nobody gets out, not even those who are able bodied.

So, when we were there last week, I ditched my ECV at the exit and painfully and with much difficulty walked up the ramp to the ride exit. It took about 20 minutes to navigate the 15 feet or so.

When I finally got up there, the CM took my SAP. looked at it, asked if it was mine, looked at it some more and then told me that it was not valid without my ECV. Okay, its at the bottom of the ramp. Why did you ditch it, he asked? I didn't, I left it at the bottom so as to not block the exit. He rolled his eyes and then made us wait for a while, at least 10 minutes and the SAP line started to back up. Then, 20 minutes later as I finally sat back down in my chair I inserted the key as I watched a wheelchair go up the exit ramp followed by a ECV (same party) and laughed to myself that the CM would learn the hard way that a chair and a ECV in the SAP line at Peter Pan just will not work... And the best part is, I never had to open my mouth at the absurdity of it all. The Cm was going his job, making sure the pass was real, attempting to void it for lack of an ECV in the que. Accepting my "story" as I am sure he thought I was abusing the system, he learned his lesson without me being abusive, physical or violent as some become when faced with this situation, again those who do are most likely those who are abusing the system...

cstephens
01-10-2004, 05:38 AM
Originally posted by AVP
Off the top of my head, I can think of 3 rides that actually have wheelchair accessible queues:

Indy

And even then, they're apparently treating Indy as not wheelchair accessible.

From DL's mobility disabilities page (http://disneyland.disney.go.com/dlr/guestServices/mobilityDisabilitiesListing?id=MobilityDisabilitie sPage#):


Indiana Jones™ Adventure
Enter through the exit to the left of the attraction entrance, and proceed to the waiting area. Contact a Cast Member for boarding instructions.

chinamama
01-10-2004, 09:50 AM
You know I don't have alot of faith in the system not being written down and enforced as such.

My daughter is autistic so we were in getting a pass when this lady came in, you could tell she was embarrassed and really did'nt know what she was talking about. She asked for a front of the line pass, explaining that this was their first time at Disneyland, her son was autistic, and that someone had told them to come to city hall for a "front of the line pass".

The man behind the desk very snottily informed her there were no front of the line passes! She turned around and started to walk out apologising, when I stopped her and told her to go back and ask for an SAP. She was standing there crying telling me it did'nt matter, I told her it did matter, my daughter was autistic also and she was entitled to it, it was something Disney offered to help them have a more enjoyable time.

Well she did turn around and walk back in with me and ask for it with the correct wording, and the guy did give it to her, but pure hate was coming out of his eyes at me that I would dare to make sure she had one. He informed her again is was not front of the line, I also told her is was not but it did help.

Now this was a year and a half ago when everyone and their brother was getting one, what's going to happen now with leaving it up to the CM's discrestion, even with Autism being one of the few disabilities to get a pass?????

Boy I wish I would have written down his name and reported him!

Laurie

poohbunnieshutch
01-10-2004, 10:08 AM
CM attitude is a big part of this. Granted, the majority of the CMs are being gracious and accomodating, but there are the few who are taking much glee in this new policy and denying the SAP. Again, granted they have seen much abuse of the program in the last few years and much abuse from guests who are still trying to abuse the system, but that is no excuse for a poor attitude.

AVP
01-10-2004, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by ToursbabeC3po Indy... Autopia... roger rabbit I already mentioned those.
pooh Like I said, it was late, I knew I missed some
JungleOnly to the side gate - if the queue goes upstairs, and once it's past the last turn, it's not accessible.
most of star toursThe Star Tours queue is NOT wheelchair accessible, unless you mean the overflow queue.
Honey A show, not a ride, but I'll give you that one.
Astro It's supposed to be, but CMs tell visitors using a wheelchair to enter through the exit gate
most of matahorn Again, just the exterior queue - nothing past the turnstile is accessible
new space moutain, the new Buz ride We'll see.

AVP

Forbin
01-11-2004, 05:55 PM
Just my experience Today at DL 1/11: Not too crowded, good temperature.

I'm climbing the stairs to City Hall, and this family of five just FLOWS around me. I mean they are running as fast as they can, and practically knock me over to get into city hall.

The Lady there asks what do they need and one of the girls says 'I have problems going down and 'uh' up stairs and I need the Special Assistance Card' - Note the words she used, Special Assistance CARD. After I just saw her jump 3 steps and sprint into the building. She also knew it was a new card so that proves she reads this board. (Or one just like it)

Of course the CM was very polite and explained there was no special card for climbing stairs and they would have to ask at the Ride. They leave, with the girl limping on her foot and slowly going down the stairs. (Note: it was 4 girls and their mom)

Oh COME ON! That was one of the most OBVIOUS lies I have ever seen! Those the EXACT kind of people that abuse the SAP system in the first place. Now that if you have a wheelchair you cannot get the Card (Wheelchair is the card in a way) you can't just rent a wheelchair and dump it somewhere. (You try pusing a wheelchair around DL...it's a PAIN)

I applaud the CM's at City hall for doing their job and preventing another SAP fiasco.

But now for another issue, I was at Winnie-The-Pooh and saw a young boy in a wheelchair in the regular line. (Near the front) I couldn't believe that the CM's didn't care enough to grant him and his group (4 I think) SAC entrance, as I saw them do for the 3 people behind me in line. (The boy ended up 10 people behind me). Now I will normally assume that he asked for normal line, but still, they should've pulled him out. They allowed the others to use the FP line, why not him? As this is the second time I have seen the CM's at Winne-The-Pooh do nothing when a violation is occuring, they are falling down on my list of good CM's.


Note For AVP : At Autopia they told me people are trying to photocopy their old SAP's and then changing the date to look like a SAC. Oh my, now that is probably the worst of the abusers. Worse than someone trying to fake a leg injury.

Haldwitten
01-11-2004, 10:59 PM
The queue for Winnie the Pooh is accessible for wheelchairs. If one has a wheelchair and no FastPass, they must use use the Standby line. The Winnie the Pooh CM's are doing as they've been told.

Forbin
01-12-2004, 01:27 AM
I know and agree, but ask the person in a wheelchair who just showed up without a FP and got in line behind me :(

adriennek
01-12-2004, 07:06 AM
So, wait a minute... Disney CMs are handling people who use wheelchairs inconsistantly? Unpossible!

Adrienne

teri
01-12-2004, 07:27 AM
Originally posted by Forbin
Of course the CM was very polite and explained there was no special card for climbing stairs and they would have to ask at the Ride.

OK, now I want you to think about this one piece of the policy for a moment. Assume for a moment that someone is not cheating, not abusing the policy in any way, and not asking for or receiving any advantage in terms of their place in line.

Why should I have to negotiate with front-line CMs for the access to the elevators at rides with long stairways? They could just look at the GAC and know what was necessary. I don't have to explain myself over and over, I don't have to reveal that I have arthritis and mild spasticity in my legs to someone who has no idea what I am talking about.

My experience has been, without the GAC or SAC, they say no. That means I do not get access, or I risk overtiring and crashing at the park -- it has happened to me a few times and I really try to avoid it. I cannot push myself in a wheelchair, and ecvs are expensive for frequent visitors. And no, it is not fair to ask my family to push me in a wheelchair just so I will have a place to sit in line. It IS a hardship, costly, stigmatizing and not medically necessary. Dealing with a wheelchair is a pain. Been there. Don't want to do that. I don't need barrier-free access, I just need a way to walk in without overtiring.

If you are a person who has taken these elevators (as I have, many times) you know that it does not give you any significant advantage, and at times it is slower than using stairs.

This is what a GAC/SAC was all about. There is a message on the GAC at WDW that informs CMs that a person may need special assistance or alternate access for hidden disabilities - those that cannot be deduced from the presence of mobility aides. Disney needs to figure out a way to make this possible.

hazlnut
01-12-2004, 08:09 AM
Originally posted by DL_Beachboi
Seriously people I wish you would all stop complaining like if Disney owed you the world, they entertain me and that is what matters, if anything I like being there because for those few hours I am there even if I am in a wheel chair, I like to feel like everyone else like I used to be I am more than happy to do everything the way other people do it, Disneyland helps me get out of the reality of being disabled and brings me into this state that nothing really matters.

I love this person. You are my hero.

Folks complaining about the new policy should read the Kurt Vonnegut short story Harrison Bergeron which begins: "The year was 2081, and everybody was finally equal."

I also like what Kevin Yee said about people having this wierd sense of entitlement.

The abuse has gone on long enough.

AVP
01-12-2004, 08:56 AM
Originally posted by hazlnut
I also like what Kevin Yee said about people having this wierd sense of entitlement.
Entitlement (en·ti·tle·ment) n. "A government program that guarantees and provides benefits to a particular group" So, since there *is* a government program, (otherwise known as the ADA), that guarantees and provides benefits to the disabled. I guess I do feel that my (disbled) husband is "entitled" to equitable treatment under the law.

But then, I guess I'm just wierd.

AVP

HBTiggerFan
01-12-2004, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by Forbin
I know and agree, but ask the person in a wheelchair who just showed up without a FP and got in line behind me :(

Because that is where people in wheelchairs and their parties are supposed to wait in line if the queue is wheelchair accessible. If the party had gotten a FastPass and came back at the return time then they would have gotten in the FastPass line.


Originally posted by kflo
My father has a knee injury that deters him from walking the resort... It is sad that my father can't go to the resort and go on the rides he used to with the SAP, even if he has a wheelchair he'd still have to wait in the line...

That's the way it was always supposed to be. The SAP was never supposed to be a front of the line pass. It was always supposed to offer an alternate waiting place, or alternate access.


Now you may say well he is sitting, that is great but he is still in the pain... He'd rather be able to do the 3 or 4 rides he enjoys in the least amount of time and then go home

Why should your father be allowed to go to the front of the line, ride 3 or 4 rides and then go home? Why shouldn't he have to wait again? Because he's in pain? Do you have any idea how many visitors come from all over who are in chronic pain and wait in lines like everyone else? Your father (and many others) got lucky that Disneyland didn't want to enforce the way the pass was supposed to be. And now it is, and the people who got used to being able to go to the front of the line due to *head in the sand* syndrome by Disney are the ones having the biggest problems with the new system.

Disneyland has lines, and no one but the terminal ill and Make a Wish kids should be exempt from waiting in them.

hazlnut
01-12-2004, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by AVP
So, since there *is* a government program, (otherwise known as the ADA), that guarantees and provides benefits to the disabled. I guess I do feel that my (disbled) husband is "entitled" to equitable treatment under the law.

But then, I guess I'm just wierd.

AVP

Re: 'Entitlement'.

I was refering to AP'ers without any real disabilities who feel that they are due some sort of extra consideration--in other words, the abusers of the system.

I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but I believe that's who Kevin Y was refering to as well.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

HBTiggerFan
01-12-2004, 09:09 AM
Originally posted by AVP
So, since there *is* a government program, (otherwise known as the ADA), that guarantees and provides benefits to the disabled. I guess I do feel that my (disbled) husband is "entitled" to equitable treatment under the law.

But then, I guess I'm just wierd.

AVP

AVP, I asked before at the beginning of the thread and either my question, your reply or both had gotten buried.

How do you two feel the SAC should be run? Front of the line? Alternate waiting access or something else?

Christiii
01-12-2004, 09:56 AM
My mom and I have annual passes, and go to the park quite often. Lately we have been getting a SAP for her..she is 77 years old, and tho she is healthy, she does have some heart problems and (quite severe somethimes) equilibrim (sp?) problems. The SAP has REALLY helped her..we dont go on rides much..we just love to people watch, eat..and people watch..haha..but we do love Peter Pan, Alice, Storybook boats..all the ones I remember from my childhood. Those do NOT have fast passes and have really been the only way my mom can ride them...well this trip she was denied TWICE..NO WAY was she going to get one..with four CS's surrounding her at City Hall..too wierd!! We didnt let it ruin our trip...but we didnt ride those rides either.
We did get on Alice when the line was short, and my mom threw out her hip while trying to get in in a hurry...swear to god!! we didnt report it or anything...but I thought it was ironic..she just kind of hobbled around the rest of the trip..FUN! Also, noticed a LOT of wheelchairs in the regular lines and thought that was odd and terrible...In my opinion if you have an ailment that has you use a whhelchair...you should get a SAP..but I guess thats not the case.
I believe that if you come preared with a Drs. note (not noterized..thats just stupid), you should get a pass...at least that would weed about a LOT of the abuse! When we did get a SAP, I noticed a LOT of abuse, and it really ticked us off...people trying to ruin the park for other people.
Just my humble two cents!!
Christi
Lodi Ca

teri
01-12-2004, 10:19 AM
I remember that feeling of being taken away into a fantasy world where I could forget my disability, and be able to take my son and have him be in a place where he really shines and people are nice to him. And sometimes I like to go by myself, or with other friends who are not disabled. I DON'T want to lose that because I won't use a wheelchair unless it is medically necessary, or I just can't get to the rides anymore without it. I WILL NOT use a wheelchair just to be in a line.

I guess if people think I am weird to feel "entitled" to enjoy the same rides that they do without my having to be in a wheelchair, which IS a hardship for me, then I am most definitely weird.

Forbin
01-12-2004, 12:19 PM
Originally Posted By Christiii
The SAP has REALLY helped her..we dont go on rides much..we just love to people watch, eat..and people watch..haha..but we do love Peter Pan, Alice, Storybook boats..all the ones I remember from my childhood.

And what makes your mother any different than the other 2 thousand people there on the same day that the SAP can help? I mean what makes your mom different than the man who has 7 kids (He needs help) and the lady who is pregnant (She Needs help too). The SAP can help your mom and a bunch of other people who are borderline. That's why so many people got one, it was borderline. That's why it is no longer available, too many people were borderline.


Originally Posted By Christiii
I remember that feeling of being taken away into a fantasy world where I could forget my disability, and be able to take my son and have him be in a place where he really shines and people are nice to him.

And what makes your experience different than a normal park goer? I don't think there is a single person who goes to Disneyland and doesn't want to go to a fun magical place. Everyone wants to go someplace where no one is judged and everyone is nice to you. You don't want to be in a wheelchair but you want your disability to be a factor in getting in shorter lines. You overtire and crash in lines. I myself have gone to the Mickey's detective Agency show 20 times just to find a place to sit down for 15 minutes and still entertain my children. Restoring the old SAP will not solve your problem. The SAP line in Pirates was even LONGER than the Normal Line. Maybe something like a better Fast Pass will solve it.

How about this for a Fast Pass Issue:

Fast Pass in the beginning of the park (Or at the monorail Station). Tell them how long you are there and what rides you want to ride on. It will try to design a path that will let you get on all the rides you want. But here's the catch, miss your appointment by 15mins (Bathroom Breaks and Late Trains) and Hello Standby Line. That way they can design you a way to enjoy the park and not stand in long lines. Maybe even between the dead spots they say (You want Indiana, your time is 3:30. At 2:45 why don't you try out the TikiTiki Room?)

Remember that the best time to be on the rides is during the Parades, so the computers should be able to figure that in too.

Look at Winnie the Pooh. A ride for the 5 year old. What other ride is near Winnie the pooh that is for the 5 year old? Nothing! Well maybe tom's sawyer island. What a waste. 25 Minute walk to Winnie the Pooh just to find out your fast pass will be good in 4 hours. Gah.

Now a structured walk through scenic parts of the park, that's an idea. Start in Main Street, Punch in at TikiTiki room. (You are guaranteed for Jungle cRusie in 30 mins) Do Jungle Cruise, you are guaranteed for Indiana in 30 mins after that.

See what I'm going to? You pick a Guide through the park, and as long as you stick to your guide you will not wait in a long line. Skip your guide (Like you skipped jungle cruise, then your nice indy pass won't work).
Gah that is a lot of work for Disney but it might alleviate the lines and instead create a ton of people accross all of disney.

Christiii
01-12-2004, 12:30 PM
Hey Bud...get your facts straight before you lash out..ok?/ I did not post about the fantasyland thing...that was someone else...geeez...also..what makes my mom different?/ well, she is 77 and has some medical problems that she can get a drs. note for if she needed to..we wont..LIKE I SAID..it was not that bi a deal..and that lots of people ABUSE the system..tho my 77 year old mom was not one..ok?? Please back off..I was just posting my opinion of what had recently happened to us..and I dont need to get slammed for it...and neither does th person whose quote you wrongly attributed to me...