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SacTown Chronic
01-25-2004, 07:42 AM
Originally posted by teri
AVP, at WDW they are VERY professional about this. We don't get "attitude" here.

I recall a visit to Disneyland about a year ago when a CM was actually seething while she was typing in our information. It was just strange. Again, I honestly think this is part of a larger political paradigm -- people with disabilities are having services cut left and right, and the folks doing the cutting benefit from projecting the image of "entitled" disabled people "demanding" services they don't really deserve.

I wonder how much of this has to do with Disneyland being more of a regional park than WDW. In golf it is known as "local knowledge" when a golfer in a tournament is playing on his home course. He knows just enough inside "tricks" and "tips" to have a slight advantage. Not to stereotype (IMO there are more honorable teenagers than not), but I haven't been to Disneyland without seeing a group or two of healthy teenagers using SAP. And I'm not forgetting system abusing adults here - they are there just usually a little less conspicuous as SAP abusing teens tend to be in packs. I imagine that it's possible that CMs got fed up with having to supply obviously fraudulent SAPs, and became (wrongly) resentful of the whole system. Maybe the paradigm was anger at non-disabled people "demanding" services they don't really deserve.

If the SAC proves to be succesful, after they work out the obvious kinks common to any kind of new policy (esp. clear communication down to the front lines), you might see a new attitude in City Hall and at the attractions.

The key to any succesful program is to "human nature" proof it. Leave any loophole or crack and there will be a segment of the population to pounce and abuse. A few bad apples and all that. But can it be done?

Forbin
01-25-2004, 06:45 PM
poohbunnyhutch-
Ok I see the situation now, you didn't get treated the exact same as a regular SAC and you didn't like it. Forgive them, I forgive them all the time.

Well you did say you lost your Placard and had to show replacement papers and the Parking CM gave you a bit of an attitude. Like I said, forgive him, he sees 10,000 people a day and I bet 500 people say they need Chip n Dale but don't have a placard but have some sort of 'different' paperwork that says they need to park in Chip n Dale. You should be happy the CM even did that or there would never be a place for you to park your Van. If they didn't verify everyone who needed CnD parking then it would be full instantly and you will be mad when they told you to park on the 5th level.

When you said you went to Peter Pan you said SAP. Not SAC. So I couldn't understand how you did what you did since you didn't give me enough information and you said SAP which means you did this before Dec 1st. And yes you should forgive that employee. Just because you got some unacceptable attitude you said they shouldn't be forgiven?

You want the old system back where they didn't ask you questions. Well unfortunately that system is gone. Welcome to the new system and I bet you noticed just how short the Peter Pan SAC line was now.

You want the CM's to walk in your shoes and treat you better. How about you walk in their shoes and see just how many people try to scam the system? You might become a bit cynical too.

Dealing with a Disability isn't a Black and White System. That's City's hall job to find the gray areas and issue a SAC. Once you have the SAC you get treated all the same, as if you were the most disabled person in the planet and need assistance. You are in the Yes side. No doubt about it. Dealing with People Scamming the old system and continuing to scam the system isn't a Black And White system also. These poor CM's who get paid $7/hr and have to stop Scammers every hour from clogging up the SAC system would make them a bit cynical. That's why they deserve forgiveness. Now if they say you don't deserve an SAC? Now you have a good arguement.

ToursbabeC3po
01-25-2004, 08:12 PM
These poor CM's who get paid $7/hr
Hey!!!! I make way more then that they are ripping you off at WDW!!!! LOL:p

Missing Marbles
01-26-2004, 12:38 AM
Thought I would come out of lurking mode. First time posting on this site. I have been reading this thread with much interest since my fiancé' is disabled and we recently (last week) experienced the new SAC procedure. BTW, we are also long time AP holders.

A quick medical report: My fiancé' has a degenerative disease that resulted in a broken back and surgery in an attempt to repair the spine with a piece of titanium. It is a disability not apparent to the eyes, yet extremely painful to the suffer. Some days, she has no pain to begin with but as the day progresses it become excruciating. Other days, she is wheel chair bound. In either case, standing or sitting for extended periods can increase the pain. And yes, she has the disability card.

Last week, we brought her wheelchair and left it in the car. We first went to CA and spoke with the CM at guest services and explained the situation while presenting the disability card. Without even glancing at the card, the CM politely explained only a wheel chair or cane would result in a SAC. Since we were only planning on seeing Aladdin before heading to DL, we thanked him for the information. I am actually very happy an attempt is being made to solve the out of control SAP abuse problem.

Upon leaving CA, we went back to the car and got the wheel chair. I should have thought a bit about the situation and brought my cane. Though I am not officially disabled, I have Psoriatic Arthritis and some times am in need of a little walking assistance.

We entered DL and went to CH. After trying to navigate the up hill ramp to CH, we talked with the CM explaining her disability once again presenting the disability card. The reply was something like “we don’t look at that." and she proceeded to give us the SAC suggesting how it is best to come back on less crowded days. I asked if a cane would have been sufficient for the SAC. She answered "yes." Both interactions with the CMs were cordial.

Here is the irony. My fiancé' being 'forced' to use the wheelchair results in my arthritis to bother me. If we did not use the wheelchair, she would not have been able to handle the line waits. But using the wheelchair caused me discomfort.

Once again, we are happy DLR is attempting to fix a big problem and applaud the effort. It is my opinion a system allowing those with disabilities to come back after an appropriate wait time would work splendidly. This would do away with giving ‘special treatment” to those needing ‘special assistance’ since everyone would have the same wait time. FP is not the answer for us because we can not scoot around the park very rapidly.

Ok, I will jump off the soapbox now…very carefully!

Steve

BJW
01-26-2004, 01:26 AM
I did not read all 19 pages of this thread so forgive me if some of what I address here is redundant from previous posts.

I was at the resort for four days this week on my monthly trek to the resort with my aunt and grandmother. My aunt has emphysema and can't walk so I have to push her in a wheelchair. My grandmother is missing a kneecap and four toes so she has to push a walker. We rightfully had no problem getting the SAC at DCA's guest relations. However, my experience with the resort CMs was suprisingly awful! I have never met so many rude cast members in one day.

Basically, the way I understand the new policy is that the CMs only have to accept the SAC when they feel like it. Otherwise they can reject it at will. For example, Pirates accepted it all day even though the que is wheelchair accessible. However, Soarin wouldn't accept it. We were told we would have to use fastpass or wait in the regular line. At guest relations they said it is because all of DCAs ques are wheelchair accessible that the SAC isn't accepted there. I brought up Stinger, Zephyr, and Screamin which are not accessible, and they changed their tune and said these were the exceptions. They then claimed if we would have told them that we had further issues than the wheelchair they would have noted it on the pass so we could use it on rides like Soarin. However, they said endurance issues are not acceptable excuses for the pass, only medication and illnesses.

One city hall CM rudely snarled at us, "The ADA does not require us to provide special accomodations for the handicapped so we aren't anymore and we don't care if guests have endurance issues, they can just quit coming. Come on a less crowded day if you don't like it!"

The new SAC is worthless and is just a way for Ouimet to get a growing problem out of his hair quickly. I honestly feel Disneyland doesn't care about the handicapped or senior citizens anymore because most of them are on fixed incomes and don't contribute greatly to the bottom line. So, "who cares if we lose their business?" If Disney had done any kind of research they would see there is an acceptable way to do this that is accepted throughout the theme park industry. Oh, and it's not illegal to demand proof, Six Flags and Paramount do it. I'm an annual passholder to their parks as well. Ouimet is a cruise ship expert and not a theme park expert.

If you don't believe me consider this: first aid stopped their service of shuttling handicapped guests back to their hotels provided they were staying on resort property and didn't tell anybody they stopped it. This month's visit was the first month they refused this, and they were very rude in letting us know about it. Security refused us as well with their golf cart things at DTD. This used to be an option as well. The information desk called Paradise Pier to come pick us up in a van, but they weren't thrilled and insinuated that this was a once in a lifetime thing, as they were understaffed. I dare you to find me one person that uses a walker that can walk 1 mile or whatever from Fantasmic special viewing to Paradise Pier. Monorails closed before Fantasmic was over. As for the SAC problem, find me one person in a walker that can wait for 3 hours in a line (on some days at DL lines do get that long, especially with current capacity issues.) DL had no problem taking our $1,000 for hotel and special show seating but left us in the cold when it comes to common courtesy.

Sure there's no ADA law or whatever that Disneyland has to provide these things, but that's what always made Disneyland magical, they go beyond what's required. Just like there's no law that waiters can't fart next to your table while your eating but they don't because it would be detrimental to their guest's experience. We could have stayed at the Park Inn and had a much closer walk. You've never seen a disfigured 72 year old having to eat pain pills. As she has told the CMs that were rude to her, she would trade places with them in an instant and wishes she could wait in 3 hour lines and walk miles. We decided to skip our fourth day we were so upset at DL, so it cost them somewhat! We are also canceling all of our reservations until May when Tower opens. I no longer have the same opinion I did in my posts on the first two pages of this thread and I also no longer have a favorable opinion of Matt Ouimet. He needs to think less of the bottom line and respect all guests equally, not just the ones that aren't on a fixed income.

Sorry for all the bitterness but I think you'll agree I have a right to be angry.

poohbunnieshutch
01-26-2004, 02:55 AM
"For example, Pirates accepted it all day even though the que is wheelchair accessible. "

Pirates que is not wheelchair accessible, no matter how much others want you to believe it is...

"you didn't get treated the exact same as a regular SAC and you didn't like it. "

I had a regular SAC and I never said I did not like it, I said the mood had changed and I stated why.

"Well you did say you lost your Placard and had to show replacement papers and the Parking CM gave you a bit of an attitude. Like I said, forgive him, he sees 10,000 people a day and I bet 500 people say they need Chip n Dale but don't have a placard but have some sort of 'different' paperwork that says they need to park in Chip n Dale. You should be happy the CM even did that or there would never be a place for you to park your Van. If they didn't verify everyone who needed CnD parking then it would be full instantly and you will be mad when they told you to park on the 5th level."

If we had had to park on the 5th level because Chip n Dale was full, then that would have been okay. Especially since I did not have the new placard with me. And yes, many times CND is full, with perfectly healthy families parking in the 15 minute zone without a handicapped placard. With the wheelchair, that was problematic, with the scooter, inconvenient, but if all that they had was 5th floor, then that is what they had. Many times, in many establishments, the HC parking is full, even with abusers who do not have a placard at all. It doesn't illicite anger there and it doesn't illicite anger here. Point is attitude is not acceptable. Don't remember if i said it was unforgiveable. The CM has a job to serve their guests. Their personal opinions about the guests should be kept to themselves. Attitude is neither acceptable for a CM or for a guest, period. If any of my employees were to display attitude with a customer they would get written up. Three strikes you are out. End of story.

"When you said you went to Peter Pan you said SAP. Not SAC. So I couldn't understand how you did what you did since you didn't give me enough information and you said SAP which means you did this before Dec 1st. And yes you should forgive that employee. Just because you got some unacceptable attitude you said they shouldn't be forgiven?"

Semantics. SAP?SAC, really the same thing, just different time periods. I often interchange SAP with SAC and that is my mistake since I have trouble really differentiating between SAP and SAC. Same old access card, whether they call it a pass or a card. Only now, they can deny it at will. And again, there is no excuse for attitude. The CM is in a position of serving the guest. That is what they are paid for. But on the other hand, attitude on the part of the guest is also unacceptable. They have the same responsibility to treat the CM with respect, regardless of the behavior of the CM, which is what I always do. And for the record those who abused and continue to abuse the SAC system did not show respect for the Cms, their fellow guests and those who truly needed the SAP/SAC.

"You want the old system back where they didn't ask you questions. Well unfortunately that system is gone. Welcome to the new system and I bet you noticed just how short the Peter Pan SAC line was now."

I never said I wanted the old system back. Please read my posts before you respond. What I said was that the old system was abused. What I said was CMs turned a blind eye. What I said was that the mood had changed. What I said was that the new system still allows abuse from those who know how to work the system(and as the new system continues, word will get out how to work the system, just as with the old system) and some of those who truly need the pass are being denied it.

I have never complained about how long the line was. I do not expect FOTL priviledges and never have and have also stated many times that the SAP/SAC is an accessibility card, not a line cutter or FOTL pass. And actually, the SAp/SAC line for Pirates was really not much different. I had a few parties with a cane, make it up the ramp before me and a wheelchair or two (don't remember how many) a ECV who after the first bend realized that wouldn't work (and then managed to spring up the ramp ignoring the fact that i was trying to get up the ramp) and a group of teenagers (how they got the pass I don't know) who pushed forward of me saying they had a pass.( and no, I don't think that evedrybody who made it up the ramp before I should have to wait for me to make it up the ramp since I was in the ramp first) Why is it that everybody assumes that disabled persons who use the SAP/SAC system is demanding of special privildeges? Its not about special access, IT IS ABOUT ACCESS!

"You want the CM's to walk in your shoes and treat you better. How about you walk in their shoes and see just how many people try to scam the system? You might become a bit cynical too."

Never said I want them to treat me better, they should treat every guest well, period. I don't want them to walk in my shoes. But I do want them and others to understand that disabilities and living with one is a system of many accomodations even in the simple things, that it is not as simple as you may think. And I did say that I expected that the change in mood was due to a jaded attitude from having to deal with scammers and those who abuse the system.

"Dealing with a Disability isn't a Black and White System. That's City's hall job to find the gray areas and issue a SAC. Once you have the SAC you get treated all the same, as if you were the most disabled person in the planet and need assistance. You are in the Yes side. No doubt about it. Dealing with People Scamming the old system and continuing to scam the system isn't a Black And White system also. These poor CM's who get paid $7/hr and have to stop Scammers every hour from clogging up the SAC system would make them a bit cynical. That's why they deserve forgiveness. Now if they say you don't deserve an SAC? Now you have a good arguement.


And that is what i said, but again, you didn't read my posts. The CMs at City Hall are using a black and white approach. If you have a cane or Wheelchair or ECV, you get a SAP/SAC, even if you just got that cane, wheelchair or ECV to scam the system. The gray area disabilities are being denied a SAP/SAC unless they arfe in a chair. Nobody has denied me a SAP/SAC save the one CM cast member who told me that my SAP/SAC was my power chair. But, I still got attitude. Attitude for any reason in a CM is not acceptable, don't remember if I really said it was unforgivable and I did list some reasons why I thought the mood had changed.

Either I am doing a really bad job at communicating or you are just not listening to what I truly said. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt as it is early in the morning, I am tired and probably not the most literate person at this time of the morning.

poohbunnieshutch
01-26-2004, 03:15 AM
"One city hall CM rudely snarled at us, "The ADA does not require us to provide special accomodations for the handicapped so we aren't anymore and we don't care if guests have endurance issues, they can just quit coming. Come on a less crowded day if you don't like it!""

Now this is a problem. No, the ADA does not require that Disneyland provide special accomodations. Their past treatment of shuttling the disabled from hotel to front gate was a good measure in public relations at helping the disabled enjoy their stay and assisting them in any manner possible. I'm sorry to hear they have discontinued their policy of providing generous and gracious assistance.

But what is even more disturbing is the attitude of this CM. WHile the ADA does not require special accomodations (which many CMs and guests alike are quick to judge us of requiring and demanding) it does require that all rides be accessible to those with disabilities, and it gives no exceptions to that rule. ALL RIDES. all attractions, shopping venues and eating establishments must be made accessible to all with disabilities.

Disneyland made good efforts at making Pooh wheelchair accessible, and many of the rides and attractions at DCA accessible (though for safety reasons and planning, I think that all wheelchair or cane users should be backdoord at the accessible attractions, but that is my personal opinion, not a demand that I make and I do use Fp when possible or just hang out in the line). But for the most part, Disneyland has chosen to not make the ques of the majority of their rides accessible, even when the rides were rehabed after the regulations were set up. Disney decided to implement the SAp/SAC system as a way to legally make the rides accessible to those disabled persons who cannot navigate the regular que or board in the traditional manner. Only those who abuse they system, those guests who are not using the system and the CMs have defined the system as a FOTL pass and special accomodations, when in reality to those who really need the assistance, the pass is accessibility, not special accomodations.

And again, while it is understood, attitude is never acceptable and most certainly not on the part of a CM in charge of making the park ACCESSIBLE for disable guests....

hazlnut
01-26-2004, 06:27 AM
Originally posted by poohbunnieshutch
WHile the ADA does not require special accomodations (which many CMs and guests alike are quick to judge us of requiring and demanding) it does require that all rides be accessible to those with disabilities, and it gives no exceptions to that rule. ALL RIDES. all attractions, shopping venues and eating establishments must be made accessible to all with disabilities.

I'm confused. Earlier in this thread it was mentioned that some ride were not accessible. When I worked there 12 years ago, every attraction in NOS and CC was wheelchair accessable.

Which rides exactly are not wheelchair accessable?

hazlnut
01-26-2004, 06:31 AM
Originally posted by poohbunnieshutch
Pirates que is not wheelchair accessible, no matter how much others want you to believe it is...

(sorry, I'm reading from the last to first)

Um, I worked on Pirates. It was wheelchair accessible when I worked there.

How has that changed?

hazlnut
01-26-2004, 06:41 AM
Originally posted by poohbunnieshutch
I have never complained about how long the line was. I do not expect FOTL priviledges and never have and have also stated many times that the SAP/SAC is an accessibility card, not a line cutter or FOTL pass. And actually, the SAp/SAC line for Pirates was really not much different. I had a few parties with a cane, make it up the ramp before me and a wheelchair or two

I think some of us are confused about what you do expect out of the SAC. The alleged verbal "attitude" aside, what aren't you getting that you expect?

and

What ramp? Where is this place with ramps and hills you keep describing?

The wheelchair entrance for pirates is flat.

hazlnut
01-26-2004, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by BJW
Sorry for all the bitterness but I think you'll agree I have a right to be angry.

BJW:

I read your post and empathize with your situation and negative experience. If DLR cut-off services I was used to getting with my family I would be upset as well.

That being said... Reading your post and considering every accomidation you were a given, I am unable to see where DLR fell short of reasonably meeting you needs.

There has been previous mention in this thread about the SAC and FP lines, and I am still not understanding how the new policy is unfair. You get an FP and come back. The wait is 20 mins at most. If the FP's are gone for the day, you politely explain your situation to a CM--maybe they'll help you, maybe they won't. It's always been my experience that "Excuse me, but is there any way you could help us?" goes a lot further than, "FP's are gone and we need to get on this ride!"

hazlnut
01-26-2004, 07:53 AM
As I've continued to follow this thread, reading about the different disabilites some of the posters suffer, I truely try to empathize with them to the best of my ability as my own experience with disabilites is limited to my mother and father--Alzheimer's Disease/profound emphysema and lung disease.

That being said, I would like to make one comment about attitudes toward disabilities in general. Disabilities come in all shapes in sizes with multitudes of CAUSES and CURES.

Before I make my comment, I want to be clear, this does not apply nor is it directed to anyone on this thread/board...

But... to the extent any disability was brought on or made worse by smoking, obesity, excesive drinking, or any type of poor diet, the general public does not and should not be expected to have sympathy for that disabled person.

justagrrl
01-26-2004, 08:28 AM
Originally posted by hazlnut

But... to the extent any disability was brought on or made worse by smoking, obesity, excesive drinking, or any type of poor diet, the general public does not and should not be expected to have sympathy for that disabled person.

Wow - you're speaking for a LOT of people when you refer to "the general public".

Personally speaking, my Grandmother had profound emphysema and lung disease brought about by a lifetime of smoking, and the inability to stop. I had a good deal of sympathy for her.

Why someone would not have sympathy for the pain of another is probably a personal thing and I won't make generalizations in that area as you did. But for me, if a person is in pain, I can have sympathy for them. I may wish they would stop whatever they were doing to contribute to it - but I don't stop feeling sympathetic that they are suffering.

People are not perfect. They may not eat the perfect diet and that contributes to their illness...does that mean they don't deserve sympathy because of it? Maybe for you - but not for me.

Quitting smoking, drinking, or unhealthy eating isn't easy. For some people it's much more difficult then others.

Are you saying, in fact, that people who've brought about their disibility in some way, are less deserving or shouldn't get an SAP (SAC, whatever) ?

I would hope that you wouldn't discriminate based on how people became ill or disabled.

hazlnut
01-26-2004, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by justagrrl
Personally speaking, my Grandmother had profound emphysema and lung disease brought about by a lifetime of smoking, and the inability to stop. I had a good deal of sympathy for her.

I guess it's a personal thing and what we mean by feeling sympathetic. I feel more for you and any family/friends of people with addictions or self-destrictive lifestyles. It's been my experience that they suffer much worse than the addicted person.

Also, thank you for asking me to clarify my postion rather than putting words in my mouth as others have done on this thread.

Here's my answer: Everyone has to make his own choice about wheather or not they deserve/need an SAC.

ToursbabeC3po
01-26-2004, 08:45 AM
"One city hall CM rudely snarled at us, "The ADA does not require us to provide special accomodations for the handicapped so we aren't anymore and we don't care if guests have endurance issues, they can just quit coming. Come on a less crowded day if you don't like it!""
I really am suspicious if this happened or not. The only thing I have heard city hall say is that the ADA does not require us to give out passes. If you have an endurance issue we recommend you use a wheelchair because the walk from each ride is often a lot longer then the lines themselves. Am I calling this person a liar? No. But I really do believe that people tend to exaggerate things especially when they are not getting what the want and there is change. People hate change. Heck I do to!

poohbunnieshutch
01-26-2004, 08:48 AM
"I'm confused. Earlier in this thread it was mentioned that some ride were not accessible. When I worked there 12 years ago, every attraction in NOS and CC was wheelchair accessable."

Neither the wheelchair que or the fast pass ques are wheelchair accessible, you must enter through the exit which has a ramp much steeper than the ADA required rise and length for wheelchair accessible ramps. The ride itself is accessible, just not through the regular que or fast pass que (which many think those in wheelchairs should be using.

"What ramp? Where is this place with ramps and hills you keep describing?

The wheelchair entrance for pirates is flat."

The wheelchair entrance to pirates is not flat, there is a very steep exit ramp through which wheelchairs access the ride. The same with mansion(though not quite as steep), Peter Pan(again not as steep) Casey Junior, IASW, and the Trains. Any others I cannot comment since it would be perilous to my condition to ride those rides in the first place. I do ride pooh, the jungle cruise most FL attractions and do the shows, HISTA, ITTBAB,GMWML...

""FP's are gone and we need to get on this ride!""

Most disabled individuals are not that demanding. At the time, since most FP lines are not wheelchair acceptable, getting a FP for a ride is not a solution to making the ride acceptable.

"I think some of us are confused about what you do expect out of the SAC. The alleged verbal "attitude" aside, what aren't you getting that you expect?"

Actually, I never said that I expected anything. Someone asked if anybody had had any personal experiences with the new system. I shared my experiences, noted that the mood had changed and my reasons for that belief. I never have expected anything other than Disney's effort to make the ride accessible to those with disabilities. And we are talking reasonable accomodation. Nobody on this board has even suggested that all the rides be redesigned to be a safe and accessible ride for each and every type of disability. That comes under the judgement of the disabled person to make sure that the ride is of a safe type for them to ride given their disability. The only requirement that the ADA make is that it be accessible. The SAP/SAC program was one way that the DLR chose to make their rides accessible rather than participating in a full on renovation of each ride and que to be accessible.

ToursbabeC3po
01-26-2004, 08:53 AM
I guess it's a personal thing and what we mean by feeling sympathetic. I feel more for you and any family/friends of people with addictions or self-destrictive lifestyles. It's been my experience that they suffer much worse than the addicted person.

I agree with you to a point. Last year I found out I had type 2 diabetes. I made a choice to change my diet to a no sugar low carb diet and I no longer have diabetes. If you can fix something then I think you should. But I do feel for people that have smoked and have breathing problems because a lot of people live in denial about things there whole life and then when they get sick over there destructive behavior there is nothing they can do or say to fix the problem. So at that point they cannot change there situation. they are already sick and it is very sad.

Forbin
01-26-2004, 08:54 AM
Poohbunnyhutch - Ok I read and read, it still seems to me that you are mad because of the attitude. I do not see anywhere where you show that the CM's denied you a Pass because of your disability (Oh well there was one where you were told it was your ECV and you didn't accept it.) That's it, the attitude. You post about the problems with the system but it does seem that when you have all your ducks in a row the system works. Now when someone is rude to you, you call their Manager. If that doesn't work, you go to City Hall. They will call a manager. I am surprised that so many CM's are getting away with this attitude.

BJW - On the other hand, BJW does seem to post some real issues. The City Hall CM in DCA snarling back at you? Now that I have NEVER heard of before. The City Hall CM's IMHO are the politiest people in DL. I am shocked that they treated you so bad. I am even more shocked that you accepted it and didn't call a manager in there. There has got to be more story here.

The shuttle service between hotels and parks? I wasn't aware of it. But if you look at my older posts you will know that they stopped the shuttle between Pumbaa and the park, charge everyone $8 and tell them to walk to DLR. (Before Ouimet). So when you take that into consideration the FA Shuttle does not suprise me. It looks like Harris's crew left behind a few ticking bombs that went off right before they left (Come on, you think Harris didn't have like a 30 day notice of her leaving?)

hazlnut
01-26-2004, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by poohbunnieshutch
Neither the wheelchair que or the fast pass ques are wheelchair accessible, you must enter through the exit which has a ramp much steeper than the ADA required rise and length for wheelchair accessible ramps. The ride itself is accessible, just not through the regular que or fast pass que (which many think those in wheelchairs should be using.

The wheelchair access is through the exit. (at least it was when I worked there)

Please clarify what you're talking about 'rise and length for wheelchair accessible ramps'. I'm not clear on this.

There is a slight grade coming off pirates, but I don't know of any "very steep" ramp anywhere in DLR.

hazlnut
01-26-2004, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by poohbunnieshutch
Actually, I never said that I expected anything.
...
I never have expected anything other than Disney's effort to make the ride accessible to those with disabilities.

I'm still not clear on how DLR has fallen short of your expectations as a disabled person. (your experiences with CM's unacceptable rudeness aside)

hazlnut
01-26-2004, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by poohbunnieshutch
Nobody on this board has even suggested that all the rides be redesigned to be a safe and accessible ride for each and every type of disability.
...
The SAP/SAC program was one way that the DLR chose to make their rides accessible rather than participating in a full on renovation of each ride and que to be accessible.

What are you suggesting? Do you believe something like that would be feasible or even possible in an amusement park-type setting?

Maus
01-26-2004, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by hazlnut
Before I make my comment, I want to be clear, this does not apply nor is it directed to anyone on this thread/board...

But... to the extent any disability was brought on or made worse by smoking, obesity, excesive drinking, or any type of poor diet, the general public does not and should not be expected to have sympathy for that disabled person.

Double Wow.

I'm glad you clarified your comment. Unfortunately this does apply to my husband who suffers from COPD and is on oxygen. He quit smoking nearly 20 years ago but got sick anyway (thanks Big Tobacco). No wonder he gets scornful looks when we are out in the general public. I guess we should stay home more.

Don't get me wrong, I am most definately not asking for sympathy. But my personal opinion is that his disability, or anyone else's, shouldn't be judged by the "general public."

hazlnut
01-26-2004, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by Maus
I'm glad you clarified your comment. Unfortunately this does apply to my husband who suffers from COPD and is on oxygen. He quit smoking nearly 20 years ago but got sick anyway (thanks Big Tobacco). No wonder he gets scornful looks when we are out in the general public. I guess we should stay home more.

Don't get me wrong, I am most definately not asking for sympathy. But my personal opinion is that his disability, or anyone else's, shouldn't be judged by the "general public."

My sympathies and appoligies go out to you. Let me clarify further.

My comment was directed at people who chain smoke, over eat/drink right up to the grave and/or hospital.

I can't feel sorry for them--I reserve that sorrow for their families.

poohbunnieshutch
01-26-2004, 10:27 AM
"mad because of the attitude"

Once again, just for clarity, I am not mad about the attitude. I just said that attitude from a CM or a guest is not acceptable. Where do you get mad from?

"Oh well there was one where you were told it was your ECV and you didn't accept it"

Again, you didn't read. My post said that it worked fine, except for one instance when I was told to park my ECV and go standby because I did not have a SAP/SAC (Cm told me to do this, I accepted the statement from the CH CM that my ECV was my SAP/SAC and worked with it. It was the CM at the ride who told me to go standby and park my ECV which was not acceptable since I could not walk the distance of the que. We passed on that ride. And just so you don't go putting more words into my mouth, I didn't yell at the CM, I didn't get huffy, I didn't have attitude. Because of the lack of communication to the CM who told me to park it or the lack of understanding by the CM of the "your wheelchair is your SAP/SAC" system, we passed on that ride. No big loss, a tad disappointing since it is one of my favorite rides, but not really a problem.

"What are you suggesting? Do you believe something like that would be feasible or even possible in an amusement park-type setting?"

Again, and I do not know why you don't understand this since you exact quoted me, NOBODY has asked this of any amusement park. Of course its not feasible. DOn't be as ridiculous as you are trying to make me sound. One way they could make the park's rides accessible is to redo the regular ques so that wheelchairs could navigate them. THey have the opportunity to do this during each rehab. They chose not to. They could redesign the exit load sequence, they chose not to. The SAP/SAC system was to way they chose to make their rides accessible, a requirement of the ADA. It was not a demand placed on the resort by unreasonable disabled guests.

"wheelchair que "

Should read "regular que" Does this make any more sense to you?

As far as to the slope at the exit being gradual. Okay. I can see you've never had to push a 100 pound wheelchair with a guest in it up that ramp or tried to wheel yourself up that ramp for that fact. Its a steep ramp as far as wheelchairs are concerned. I think the ADA requires a one foot length of ramp for every inch of rise, it doesn't cut it.

"But my personal opinion is that his disability, or anyone else's, shouldn't be judged by the "general public.""

AMEN TO THAT!

"I'm still not clear on how DLR has fallen short of your expectations as a disabled person. (your experiences with CM's unacceptable rudeness aside)"

I NEVER SAID DISNEYLAND FELL SHORT OF MY EXPECTAATIONS!!!!!

SOMEONE ASKED IF ANYBODY ELSE HAD HAD FIRSTHAND EXPERIENCE LATELY AND I SIMPLY REPORTED WHAT I HAD EXPERIENCED. I REPORTED ATTITUDE AND A CHANGED MOOD. I NEVER SAID THAT THE RESORT FELL SHORT OF ANY EXPECTATIONS, NOR THAT I WAS MAD OR INCONVENIENCED OR ANYTHING ELSE ANYBODY WOULD LIKE TO IMAGINE!

And sorry for the caps, it seems no one listens to lowercase.

"I do not see anywhere where you show that the CM's denied you a Pass because of your disability"

ONCE AGAIN, I NEVER SAID I WAS DENIED A PASS! I stated that the new policy still allows abuse by those who know how to work the system and allows those who really do need a SAP/SAC to fall through the crack if they do not use a cane or wheelchair and lets not get started on the argument that if someone is not in a wheelchair or using a cane that they don't need a SAP/SAC. We've been through that and done that and yet, nobody seems to understand that disabilities come in all shapes, sizes and forms, even amongst different people who share the same disability as you. To deny a SAP/SAC on the basis of chair or cane status (AND AGAIN I NEVER SAID I WAS DENIED A SAP) is wrong in that it makes the decision black and white and does not allow for the myriad of disabilities and how they affect the individual person. And if one disabled person has been denied a SAP/SAC (NOTICE I SAID IF) because they do not know how to work the system, yet another abuser is granted a SAP/SAC because they knew how to work the system, then the system is still flawed. And unfortunately, in the same way the word got out about the old system, once the absuers learn the ins and outs of working the new system, it may very well return to a point in which the new system is as abused as the old one was.

"I am surprised that so many CM's are getting away with this attitude."

I'm not, doesn't suprise me in the least. Its a large place with thousands and thousands of employees. And considering that there are millions of guests who come through there every day, there is the law of dilution. A few complaints out of millions of guests, won't make a difference. And unless an employee has been physically abusive or goes beyond the attitude, I don't have the time to find the manager for that one employee, who probably isn't going to do much more than yes mam, no mam and then try to placate me or any other guest with nothing more than a verbal I'll check into it or have a free soda, which is not the point of complaining anyhow. And if the attitude is a momentary lack of discretion, attributed to denying the 3000th pass in 30 minutes (still not acceptable) then my complaining about it to their supervisor may actually make things worse for that employee.

No, my method is simpler than that. If an employee consistently has attitude, it isn't going to be my complaint that solves the problem or the complaint of any other individual, its going to be the manager actually seeing the consistent attitude of that employee that will solve (hoepfully) the situation. Give someone enough rope and they will hang themselves.

By posting on these boards and others we who disagree with the system or who have encountered employees with attitude or any other negative comment hope that through understanding of the situation, the CM and other guests as well may know what our experience has been and make steps to improve the CM/guest interaction. And to me, that is far more effective than telling a manager and then complaining and complaining and complaining which results in little change, more frustration on the CMS and guests and the perception that complainers are only out to get free stuff.

The only time I was ever given anything (and I didn't ask for it mind you) was when they had to E-Stop the train at MS because some kids had jumped the tracks. There was no way to offload me and my HUGE party of three, so they said that we would have to wait, which was okay, even though it was warm, we had the best seats in the house for the parade. I thought that bonus enough, but 15 minutes later, that employee reapeared with profuse apologies for the delay and a soda with Ice and a cup for each of us. Now that was an employee who got reported to CH. That was true Disney attitude and funny, I never demanded anything.

hazlnut
01-26-2004, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by poohbunnieshutch
As far as to the slope at the exit being gradual. Okay. I can see you've never had to push a 100 pound wheelchair with a guest in it up that ramp or tried to wheel yourself up that ramp for that fact. Its a steep ramp as far as wheelchairs are concerned. I think the ADA requires a one foot length of ramp for every inch of rise, it doesn't cut it.

Actually, I assisted more than a few guests on and off Pirates--I don't recall wheelchairs weighing a 100lbs.

And, if the handicap access is not up to code ("doesn't cut it") how did they pass city inspection?

poohbunnieshutch,

you're very passionate about your position, and that's a good thing. I'm just trying to use logic and reason to better understand and empathize with you.