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teri
01-23-2004, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by hazlnut
Yes, I know. I was a CM when that was the policy and on Pirates we did maybe 1 /hour.
What changed was that more people with disabilities started coming to the parks. I don't think it was the SAP that brought them. The rising popularity of ECVs and wider availability of electric wheelchairs brought even more disabled guests. More accesible transportation options and mandated changes in construction brought more disabled people in. And they came, and loved it. For a few minutes you are MOVING along in a place that lifts the imagination... it is even more special when moving along in the real world is so darn difficult.

I have absolutely no idea how many GACs or SAPs or SACs are in use at any time in any place - and if anyone does have real figures (not Lutzian hyperbole) we would all like to know. I'm also interested in hearing recent experience, although I suspect a few people turned in their APs or vowed never to return. I hope it has all turned around.

Loric
01-23-2004, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by teri
What changed was that more people with disabilities started coming to the parks. I don't think it was the SAP that brought them. The rising popularity of ECVs and wider availability of electric wheelchairs brought even more disabled guests. More accesible transportation options and mandated changes in construction brought more disabled people in. And they came, and loved it. For a few minutes you are MOVING along in a place that lifts the imagination... it is even more special when moving along in the real world is so darn difficult.

I have absolutely no idea how many GACs or SAPs or SACs are in use at any time in any place - and if anyone does have real figures (not Lutzian hyperbole) we would all like to know. I'm also interested in hearing recent experience, although I suspect a few people turned in their APs or vowed never to return. I hope it has all turned around.

Here's some fun math for the WDW side of things...

Wheelchairs, in 2002-2003.

The Universe of Energy holds a maximum of 6 wheelchairs in each show. Shows "start" every 17 minutes during the operational day. Future World is open 9am to 7pm.

On average, as a CM, I encountered 3 or 4 wheelchairs per show. Some shows had none, some had 6, some had 1. On average, 3 or 4.

Future World is open for 10 hours. That's 600 minutes, or roughly 35 show cycles per day.

35 shows at an average of 3 wheelchairs per show is 105 wheelchairs per day. 35 shows at an average of 4 wheelchairs per show is 140 wheelchairs per day.

So, roughly 105-140 wheelchairs rolling through Energy each day. (Oh my god I never realized how many of them I've pushed up those ramps!)

A portion of these are rentals, a portion are transfers from ECVs, and a small segment are people simply using the available transfer vehicles.

Oh, and before I get yelled at - yes, they are wheelchair parties and guests using wheelchairs, not just hunks of nameless faceless rolling metal.

Forbin
01-23-2004, 08:14 PM
Well so far other than myself and Jrknana and Toursbabe No one has been in City hall to see how the SAC is being handled.

So no matter how you think it's not being fair - Teri - how can you know the current situation in Disneyland?


When you say "SAP Line at Pirates" the only thing I can think of is wheelchair visitors and their friends/family. That isn't the SAP line. You see, the way it worked for us was that we would enter through the FP queue.

See here's a great example. The Wheelchair entrance is the SAP line. If you ask you get sent there. In Nov (Right before the new policy) the SAP line starts at the boat and was next to Blue Bayou. That's a goodly distance. There is no way for a real SAP person to even get on that ride considering the exit is uphill. That ride in the old days was at most 5 people deep, not 35.

How can we take you serious until you understand how it works in Disneyland today?

hazlnut
01-23-2004, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by teri
What changed was that more people with disabilities started coming to the parks. I don't think it was the SAP that brought them. The rising popularity of ECVs and wider availability of electric wheelchairs brought even more disabled guests. More accesible transportation options and mandated changes in construction brought more disabled people in. And they came, and loved it. For a few minutes you are MOVING along in a place that lifts the imagination... it is even more special when moving along in the real world is so darn difficult.

I think that's wonderful, especially when it's children with disabilities, and DLR should support that to the best of their ability--which I believe they are trying to do.

ECV's are great. But I'm not so sure it's always disabled people who are using them.

hazlnut
01-23-2004, 08:18 PM
Loric,

We need more CM's like you at DLR. I'm sorry we didn't get over to Universe of Energy when we were at WDW in Dec. I love Epcot.

teri
01-23-2004, 09:00 PM
Originally posted by Forbin
See here's a great example. The Wheelchair entrance is the SAP line.

Baloney. You have no idea what you are talking about. I have been to Disneyland dozens of times, and we had to use the SAPs for 2 reasons in our family, not one, and we were *invariably* asked to use the FP line rather than the exit whenever possible. That has been true for years.

It s the same here at WDW. You go to the CM at the FP line for instructions. The FP CM is often the only CM visible anyway. It says right on the card to ask CMs for instructions. If there is a return time, they let you know. They used to use a yellow card, now they use some kind of FP ticket with a written return time.

Forbin
01-23-2004, 09:59 PM
As I said, you haven't been there in a while. I rest my case.

Haldwitten
01-24-2004, 02:40 AM
Originally posted by teri
Baloney. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Ma'am... you need to take a breath and relax. Seriously. Jeez.

Since I've worked on four different "E Ticket" attractions over the years, I'll settle this. Guests are loaded through the exit if they have trouble with stairs or are in a wheelchair. During the busy seasons, this line can get quite long... so other Guests who can do stairs or can walk through FastPass are directed that way to get them on the ride sooner. Yes, FastPass does backup from time to time for a number of reasons, but most of the time it is MUCH quicker than the exit wait. If every SAP were to wait through the exit, the line would be too long to manage.

Routing more mobile SAP (or now SAC) Guests through the FastPass line is an attempt to reduce the wait time... not inconvenience anyone. But judging from some of your posts, Teri, nothing we do will ever meet your expectations. Myself and most every CM I work with bend over backward to help people with disabilities... it's a little frustrating to read such seemingly angry comments that we don't do enough.

What do you want? In all the time I've been there, no Guest has been turned away from an attraction because of their disability. We've done our absolute best to get every Special Assistance Guest on... stopping rides and letting things backup even so people can take their time. You told Forbin he had no idea what he's talking about. Do YOU have any idea how difficult it is to manage several thousands of people a day through an attraction - disability or not.

Everyday I see the strain on Special Assistance Guests trying to navigate the park. The distances between rides... the different levels... ramps... it is quite hard on some of the Guests. I would go on, but it seems no one can understand to your satisfaction, so what's the point.

Chill out.

teri
01-24-2004, 07:47 AM
I am just warming up. Chilling out is out of the question.

Haldwitten, Thank You for confirming exactly what I said was the case. Forbin, take note.

I was completely fine with the way things were handled when we were at Disneyland, and the CMs were great to me and my son. From my perspective as a legitimate user of the SAP, there was no problem most of the time, and when there was it was usually because someone thought we were cheating.

YOU are the ones who need to chill out.

stan4d_steph
01-24-2004, 09:16 AM
Please discuss the subject of the new DL SAP policy and share your own personal experiences with it.

If this thread continues to devolve into personal attacks it will be closed. Thank you.

poohbunnieshutch
01-24-2004, 09:19 AM
"There is no way for a real SAP person to even get on that ride considering the exit is uphill."

So all those in wheelchairs using the exit at Pirates to be able to board the ride are not real SAP users?

Please clarify yourself since I am a real SAP person and I do use the eixt. Granted, my healthy able bodied husband does push me up that very steep ramp...And now that I have my own ECV, I can make it up the ramp myself. But according to your post, since I got on the ride, I am not a real SAp person? Then how would you suggest me getting on the ride?

teri
01-24-2004, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by stan4d_steph
Please discuss the subject of the new DL SAP policy and share your own personal experiences with it.

If this thread continues to devolve into personal attacks it will be closed. Thank you.

I appreciate that. My biggest concern is that people are spreading misinformation and using ad hominem attacks rather than looking at how the system is really supposed to work, and where it can be improved. What Haldwitten wrote about how the ride access process works is exactly what my experience had been. It sounds like the process has not changed in the 7 months since I last visited Disneyland, only the determination of who gets the SAC to begin with.

Loric
01-24-2004, 11:52 AM
A quick note:

The only time WDW CMs are allowed to "drive" wheelchairs for guests, is when the ramp does not meet the ADA required 1ft/1ft rise/length requirement.

Want to know what an average WDW ADA ramp looks like? Visit Body Wars (if it ever reopens) or recall from your memory. To enter the queue there are roughly 4 steps that bypass a long extended queue area. The ramp, which guests with wheelchairs must use to avoid the 4 steps, wraps around the circumfrence of the Wonders of Life dome from the Body Wars main entrance plaza, all the way back to main entrance plaza of the Wonders of Life dome, and then doubles back to Body Wars.

But, once "IN" the attraction, guests with wheelchairs are "Driven" by CMs because the ramp to load into the vehicle isn't ADA specifications.

Are the ramps at the exit of attractions the 1ft/1ft rule? If not, a CM should be stationed there to "drive" wheelchairs for guests.

AVP
01-24-2004, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by Forbin
Well so far other than myself and Jrknana and Toursbabe No one has been in City hall to see how the SAC is being handled. Beg to differ - I spent many hours sitting in City Hall the first weekend this was in effect, watching who was given an SAC, and who was refused one. My husband, who is disabled, has asked for an SAC exactly once since the change. The cast member looked him up and down, noticed his cane, and said in this sarcastic voice "Oh, you'll be using a cane during your visit here with us today?" To which I replied, "Today, and pretty much any day he intends to get out of bed." I love that even when they issue a SAC, some CMs still manage to make you feel like you're somehow abusing the system.

AVP

poohbunnieshutch
01-24-2004, 12:09 PM
""Oh, you'll be using a cane during your visit here with us today?" To which I replied, "Today, and pretty much any day he intends to get out of bed." I love that even when they issue a SAC, some CMs still manage to make you feel like you're somehow abusing the system. "

I got the "Is that really your ECV or is it a rental???" That makes no difference to me as I am not as fortunate as she was to be able to walk...

And no the exits do not follow the rule...

teri
01-24-2004, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by AVP
...even when they issue a SAC, some CMs still manage to make you feel like you're somehow abusing the system.

AVP, at WDW they are VERY professional about this. We don't get "attitude" here.

I recall a visit to Disneyland about a year ago when a CM was actually seething while she was typing in our information. It was just strange. Again, I honestly think this is part of a larger political paradigm -- people with disabilities are having services cut left and right, and the folks doing the cutting benefit from projecting the image of "entitled" disabled people "demanding" services they don't really deserve. They are just fine with token charity handouts, but when it comes to fundamental system changes to promote fair access, they balk.

I hope your next visit starts off with more pleasant encounters.

AVP
01-24-2004, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by teri
AVP, at WDW they are VERY professional about this. We don't get "attitude" here. Strangely, we have never had a pleasant GAC-issuance experience at WDW. In fact, our DLR experience is generally prefereable to the treatment we get at WDW.

I tend to think that it is because my husband does not "look" disabled to the unititiated. He is tall, (when he's walking), young and healthy-looking. Only someone familiar with MS, or wearing MRI glasses, is going to be able to tell that there is something wrong with him until they notice that he's using a cane. And by that time, they have usually labeled him as a "cheater," and even the cane doesn't change their minds.

(You should see some of the looks and comments we get when we park in a disabled parking space - you would think that you had to have blue hair and a walker to be elligible!)

AVP

dghosthost
01-24-2004, 02:07 PM
I know what you are talking about. Heck, since I don't have visible lesions on my MRI even one of my non-ms doctors says "you can't have MS, you look just fine." /sigh

Never mind the looks I get when I am able to get the wheelchair out of the car myself, or use a handicapped parking space.

Although, prior to the SAC, I never had a problem at Guest Relations (I always brought in my DMV paperwork) I have actually been 'fooled' by attraction CM's who assumed by the way I looked that I was just fine. Once at DL when I got to the elevator at Indy, I asked to be let through to the elevator. I was told to 'follow' the EVC couple. I did, until I realized they were leaving the attraction! Luckly I ran into another CM who walked me all the way past the first CM to make sure I got on. But I still had to walk the exit thrice (one to attempt to get on, one to follow the EVC and a thrid to get back to the elevator to actually ride). The rest of the day was spent sitting down at the Coke Corner with a very sore and spasming body.

I wrote DL about this, and never heard back!

ToursbabeC3po
01-24-2004, 05:13 PM
You think you get looks I have a placard and I am 28. Man Ihave been called all kinds of things but when I do get those rude people I tell time I am crazy and to back off!

teri
01-24-2004, 06:26 PM
I used to do research in an MS center, and part of my job was to get blood samples from family members for a genetics study. I was always blown away at family members who insisted that it was all in their head... if they had a better attitude they could overcome this... if they would just take better care of themselves, or have less stress, or be more motivated they would be fine. I had all their medical records in advance or I wouldn't have been there taking their family's blood samples, and they had already met full research laboratory diagnostic criteria for MS -- and this was the attitude they were getting from their own families. It was heartbreaking at times.

I get similar stuff about my arthritis now. Some members of my extended family still don't get it.

I wish the general public could get it... or at least Guest Relations.

Forbin
01-24-2004, 06:56 PM
Actually AVP I did mention you on the list. I didn't mention you 2nd one. Sorry, I was being a bit lazy on typing.

No matter what anyone says about the policy. I think it's being fair currently. As a person who went to Disneyland in the last 2 weeks, I haven't seen any people who were denied an SAP who deserved it.

Haldwitten - Too bad someone misunderstood your post that the SAC line for Pirates is the wheelchair line and sometimes people are redirected to the FP lines so that they can get on the ride faster.

stan4d_steph - My exact point each time. 4 People here have direct experience with the New Policy. The rest is rumor.

poohbunnieshutch - I didn't mean to malign the wheelchair community. If you read my other posts I'm on their side. I was talking about all the groups that were in the SAP line for pirates (It was during the Cheerleader championships) that caused the line to go out the door. I felt sad for the wheelchair people who had to hold that chair on the uphill ramp from Blue Bayou to the interior because the line went out that door. I was real suspicious that all those SAP people just showed up out of the blue during the Championships. When did you last go to DL? I'm just keeping track of those people who have experienced the SAC system first hand.

AVP
01-24-2004, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by Forbin
I was real suspicious that all those SAP people just showed up out of the blue during the Championships. Tony and I make a point of avoiding the resort during this event, or at least going in knowing that we will not be riding anything.

It isn't that strange if you think about it - cheerleading is a rough sport, and participants are always twisting / breaking something. In any group of cheerleaders, you're bound to have one who is on the "10-day DL list," so that's a lot of cheerleaders in wheelchairs in one park over one weekend.

AVP

poohbunnieshutch
01-24-2004, 09:37 PM
We were there two weeks ago and the mood is decidedly different. While the CMs (in general) during the old policy, seemed to turn a blind eye or deaf ear to those who requested and used a SAP, there seems to be a more jaded approach, almost to the point of questioning the validity of my own ECV. Like I have several grand to throw around to avoid waiting in line at Disneyland. And then, out of courtesy to those in wheelchairs who must be lifted by their caregivers, I parked my ECV outside of the exit to Peter Pan and slowly, ever so slowly made my way up the exit to board using my SAP. You would have thought we had stolen the baby jesus from the neighborhood chreche for pete's sake. And this was done out of concern for others...It wasn't my first choice to try to manuever up that ramp (which by the way does not meet the rules for a handicapped ramp-beither does the train stations, toontown, small world, etc. etc...) and was done to make the impact of me riding the ride less evident on those who were trying to exit the ride (have you ever seen an ECV try to manuever in that exit when another ECV or wheelchair comes up that ramp????

Also, when we went to park, we did not have my placard since it was lost and the replacement was on its way. We told them I had a chair and they put the green tag on our car, but you should have seen the seer that attendant had.

And i do get the looks and the snide comments such as if I weren't so lazy as to not walk I wouldn't be so fat. Of the mom's resposne to a child asking if I was having a baby, naw she's just fat beacuse she's lazy. And then when I do miraculously rise from my chair then the looks and jeers really start coming and now, even more than with the old SAP system. Exercise for someone who has broken their back in two places and has not healed, along with the progressive nerve degeneration is not a easy task. Add, not having any feeling from the hips down, the inability to feel position mobility is down right dangerous, provideing of course, that my feet actually want to obey what my brain is telling them.

But I chalk up the change in attitude to the fact that the new system has not really removed the abuse, but limited it to those who actually know to rent a chair or a cane in order to beat the line. so those who are in a chair, who don't look like they are at death's door or those who can locomote a few feet (which may or may not happen depending on how my nerves are working or not working and anybody with a progressive disease knows this all too well) are consciously or subconsciously lumped into the abuse category by CMs jaded as to what they fell constitutes a disability and those jealous guets who can no longer abuse the SAP system and still haven't figured out how to work the system.

What the problem remains is that this one size fits all system prevents abuse by all who haven't figured out how to work the system and yet prevents the use by some of those who need this the most. Cms need to understand (and the superiors who design this system) that disabilities come in many sizes, shapes and colors and what may be applicable to one may not be applicable to another. And that the disabled person and their physician are the best ones to make the determinations as to what accomodations are the best for their health , not the CM, not another guest, no one save for the disabled person and their physician. No one is as qualified to make that decision as the disabled person. Even day to day, the situation of a disabled person changes and the response often cannot be determined in advance.

It seems so easy for those who do not live in the shoes of the disabled person to make suggestions or judgements as to how it is the responsibility of the disable to make the park accessible to them or how to best solve the situation. And making the park accessible and living with a disability is neither a simple or easy task.

Forbin
01-24-2004, 10:36 PM
At last! Number 5 who went to the park recently.

Hmmm...I wonder who was treating you like this.

But all in all your complaint seems to be attitude. They gave you a bit of an attitude and you are upset. Ok I can agree with that. The CM's are people who see abuse probably 1000 times a day and non abuse maybe 100. And are probably abused 100 times a day. They do need a bit of attitude training to not show their predjudices. Still it sounds like you got on the rides you wanted and was able to enjoy the park. Unlike the people posting here.

I do have a couple of things to point out that would be in favor of the CM.

And that the disabled person and their physician are the best ones to make the determinations as to what accomodations are the best for their health , not the CM1) You showed up without your Placard and asked for Chip n' Dale. Well I can see that under the new policy of 'Not Everyone is a SAP' that your Physician (Who has to help you get the placard) was not involved because you forgot it. So it's back to a decision between you and the CM. Who has to make that decision every day. So I would say that the CM probably should be forgiven for the attitude. I forgive them every time they give me an argument about parking, I always end up parking where I was going anyhow. CM Parking 0 - Forbin 3.

2) This one I probably got wrong but On Peter Pan, if I remember right, the SAC is tied to your ECV, and since you didn't bring your ECV (It won't fit), you left your SAC behind when you left. So again you left behind your doctor and his recommendations. Which means the CM had to ask for more proof than, 'I walked up the exit that means I get on the ride.' Well that one is more of a judgement call. To prevent that from happening in the future I would send one of your group ahead to warn the CM that you are coming so that they are prepared for you. They may even have the next ship ready for you because they need about 5 mins to cycle the ride and they will know ahead that someone who needs to use the SAP ship is coming. Who knows?

poohbunnieshutch
01-25-2004, 07:04 AM
"They gave you a bit of an attitude and you are upset. Ok I can agree with that."

It wasn't just me that was getting the attitude and I never said that I was upset. I just said the mood had changed and that I chalked it up to the CMs "lumping" (as well as others) into an abuse situation.


"You showed up without your Placard and asked for Chip n' Dale. Well I can see that under the new policy of 'Not Everyone is a SAP' that your Physician (Who has to help you get the placard) was not involved because you forgot it."

Actually, if you had read my post, my placard was lost (actually I believe it was stolen when I had it out to use in a car that was being used to transport me to a doctor's appointment since I cannot drive -we came out from the appointment, used valet parking for lunch and when we got the car back it was gone). And I did still have my placard identification papers with me in my purse. My physician was involved since I have in my posession, at all times a copy of my placard permit. Sounds like you consider me to be one of those who really doesn't need a SAP.

"So I would say that the CM probably should be forgiven for the attitude."

Attitude, for whatever reason is not acceptable in any employee who works in a service capacity, just as abuse of employees by guests is likewise unaccpetable. Just so you don't go thinking I abused any employee, I didn't.

"To prevent that from happening in the future I would send one of your group ahead to warn the CM that you are coming so that they are prepared for you. They may even have the next ship ready for you because they need about 5 mins to cycle the ride and they will know ahead that someone who needs to use the SAP ship is coming."

Um, actually, my husband did let the CM know before I started that long walk up the exit ramp (if you could call my type of locomotion walking) He explained the situation (which any cast member who works PP regularly knows that unless a wheelchair can be folded up, then heaven forbid you get two wheelchairs in line. Remember, the ride must provide a safe egress for all, not just those in wheelchairs. If the exit is blocked with assorted ECV's and wheelchairs, then safe exit is blocked for all) and showed them my SAC (yet another place you failed to fully read my post) and she said to just come on up. 10-15 minutes later, while having to stop many times for those guests who decided to come down the ramp, side by side, clearly exasperated at me for blocking their exit (how would they be if my ECV and those of others-who really needed it or were faking it were completely blocking the exit). By the time we arrived, a new CM had cycled into that position and even though we presented the written Pass, we got attitude.

I never departed from my physicians recommendations. The PP ride exit is too narrow to accomodate wheelchairs (that can't be folded up-unless they are very narrow) or ECV's as the turning radius in the exit boarding platform is too small. Not my doing, not my choice. In the old system, rarely was i questioned, even though I had a SAP and walked up the ramp quite regularly to board. And sometimes, I'd get my feet runover by a teenager laughing her head off because she had to drive the ECV backwards and all her chittering girlfriends laughing and yelling "get out of the way, gimp (more laughter) coming through".

I have been there 3 times since the new system went into place. The first time was okay, the CM at City Hall was nice, gave me a card, commented on my beautiful chair and with the exception of one CM who said that it didn't matter that I had a SAC, since I was in a wheelchair I could wait (which we did, but had to exit the line because I got too tired and we left the park-spent for the day). The second time I was told that I didn't need a SAC since i was in my own power chair (ECV) and then was denied handicapped boarding at one or two attractions (told to park my ECV and use standby line or that I should have come early to get FP) so we didn't make a peep, just didn't ride those rides to begin with. This time got the SAC at CH and actually told them that I was told to park the ECV and use standby by the cm the last time, so one was issued, not happily though.

All three times, we were never nasty (not that we have ever been) we didn't complain, we just took the medicine we were given knowing that it was the abusers that have made it bitter for those who truly need the SAP/SAC system.

We enjoyed our brief time there as I usually only last two to three hours and really never get to ride more than three to four rides (the same as any guest who pays to get in) and then I'm done. When you have a progressive disability, its like a wave that slowly washes over your body gently removing mobility inch by inch, centimeter by centimeter, day by day, minute by minute. Sometimes the old brain/neuron connection works and then suddenly a sun spot gets in the way (satellite users will understand this) and it all goes away, often without warning and very, very quickly. It even feels like when the picture starts to break up into blocks of color and then goes all black. And when your body is going through that it takes incredible energy just to survive (now if I could translate that into a fat reducing measure, I'd be happy) and by the time we get me into the car, my scooter into the car, my scooter out of the car (and re assembled) me out of the car, me into the handicapped van, me out of the handicapped van, me through the entrance lines (after three families with scooters have stepped over me) and to City Hall, I'm pretty much all the way spent. Then we go on PP (which is a difficult ride for me to get into and out of to begin with) wait however long we have to wait for the one boat that can handle a wheelchair at IASW, transfer into a wheelchair, ride the ride, transfer out of a wheelchair) then we go to HM and then I make a choice, Pirates or Pooh. Depends on how I am doing. If its starting to become a struggle just to get in and out of my chair, then usually Pooh since the pirates boat is just plain difficult to get into and out of even when I am doing well. And then we head over to Soarin and if the wait isn't too long, we do it, otherwise, we now have to hope that there are FP's available and if they are, have lunch or dinner and then go on the ride. By that time, my eyes are glazed over, the pain pills are being popped and my husband is praying that Mrs. Hyde will go away before we get back to the car. And that's on a day that DL is not crowded. Cut the activity in half when its crowded.

Sorry to be so long, but was descriptive in the hopes that you would understand that dealing with a disability is not just a black and white, yes and no, type of situation, but the current SAC system is black and white, yes and no, either and neither, but not a blend of a system that would help all and still cut down on abuse.