PDA

View Full Version : Disneyland has implemented the new SAP program



Pages : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 [17] 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29

teri
01-21-2004, 01:03 PM
Forbin, I wonder the very same thing. This whole "Get a wheelchair and we'll give you a SAC" sounds like a setup for real abuse.

Loric, I don't think the WDW *policy* is applicable to Disneyland as interpreted, because the physical layout is so different. I do think the WDW GAC system is applicable. In my imagination, they tried to implement policy without the system change that was necessary for the policy to work in a fair and equitable manner.

Suits.

adriennek
01-21-2004, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by Loric
It's sorta scary how high the tunnel vision tends to be with DL folks - often they've not the foggiest what is going on at WDW and even more often they don't wanna know. I haven't decided if it's jealousy or just bad blood between the two.

I have a sneaking suspicion that DL didn't use the WDW policy for the very same reasons.. which to me seems petty and counter productive.

I think this comment is extremely unfair and short-sighted. I have no desire to turn this thread into an east versus west debate. I have encountered an extremely large population of WDW fans that it could be said have "tunnel vision." For one example of many, I've left e-mail lists that were supposed to be about "Disney Scrapbooking." I was even invited by people to join these lists because they knew I went to Disneyland a lot and it was supposed to be generic. Then they turned out to be a bunch of people talking about WDW or even were dominated by people asking for tips for planning their vacations to WDW. Whenever I mentioned something about Disneyland, eyes glazed over, strange comments were made, and my comments were buried or ignored.

People pay attention to what is relevant to them. People who live in the midwest, east or abroad often spend their time in Florida so that's where they focus their energy. People who live in the west focus more on the more local park, Disneyland.

Please don't resort to throwing flames at people just because they're more familiar with Disneyland.

Adrienne

teri
01-21-2004, 01:10 PM
Just to be clear, I am not flaming anyone except the boneheads who deny assistance to people who really need it, regardless of coast.

Anyone else, I am gently teasing and engaging in civil debate. I wear my Disneyland fleece practically every day, and my Grand Californian t-shirts are nearly worn out. :D I look forward to the day when WDW's MK measures up to Disneyland. :)

marron-cream
01-21-2004, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by AVP

But let's not turn this into a WDW / DLR rift. I don't know how But when you start to play Super Secret Squirrel with some bit of information, (which is hardly news since it was discussed here, at length, about 6 months ago), and then make disparaging comments about the "DL folks," you're creating a divide that doesn't need to be here.

Thank you for saying exactly what I was feeling.

Loric
01-21-2004, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by adriennek
Whenever I mentioned something about Disneyland, eyes glazed over, strange comments were made, and my comments were buried or ignored.



Sadly, I know exactly how you feel.

I didn't mean it as a personal attack, and I guess phrasing it DL folk was a mistake, didn't mean it as an all encompassing statement - next time I'll use "some" or "Several" or "in my experience, most."

I personally feel that even in the discussion of the solution for the problems, the WDW policy is discounted far too easily. Certainly it can't be carbon copied, but Forbin said (or atleast i interpetted it as) the SAC card discussion from WDW was useless here - when I think it's a perfect example of how the system can and could and quite possible should work.

ToursbabeC3po
01-21-2004, 01:31 PM
I love both parks!!!!! I visit DLR at least once a month if not more as a guest and I go to WDW 14 days once a year they are both great :-)

Forbin
01-21-2004, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by teri
Forbin, I wonder the very same thing. This whole "Get a wheelchair and we'll give you a SAC" sounds like a setup for real abuse.

Actually this 'Your Wheelchair is the SAC' is working pretty well from an abuse standpoint. I have no idea from the SAC prespective.

The Abusers rent a wheelchair because they can't get a SAP, they find out that the wheelchair person 'HAS' to be with them. No wheelchair? NO SAC. They then push around the wheelchair around the rides that they really wanted to abuse. All of a sudden they realize just how hard it is to manuever a Wheelchair really is. IASW is all downhill to the ride, and all UPHILL afterwards. Autopia uses a slow elevator. Pirates is uphill to begin with. Indy is both up and down hills. They just can say, we will go on Indy without you, because then they have to use the regular line. Just as if they didn't have a chair.

Soon they realize their mistake and return/abandon the chair. Disney then returns it to stock later. At 3pm on Sunday I saw at least 5 chairs in the stock at the rental place.

So to prevent abuse, tying the SAC to the chair is actually a great idea.

dghosthost
01-21-2004, 08:13 PM
I was told I would have to bring my wheelchair (which is on order) 5 weeks ago. There went my winter vacation :(

How do I qualify w/o my chair? Bring in paper saying I have MS?

As for the ECV, my problems with my feet and vision make me as confortable on one of those as a cat on a hot tin roof!

adriennek
01-21-2004, 09:08 PM
dghosthost,

I sent you a reply privately. Check your private messages.

Adrienne

teri
01-22-2004, 06:31 AM
Originally posted by Forbin
Actually this 'Your Wheelchair is the SAC' is working pretty well from an abuse standpoint. I have no idea from the SAC prespective....

How about from th perspective of someone with limited endurance or pain? I think you know the answer...


... They then push around the wheelchair around the rides that they really wanted to abuse. All of a sudden they realize just how hard it is to manuever a Wheelchair really is. IASW is all downhill to the ride, and all UPHILL afterwards. Autopia uses a slow elevator. Pirates is uphill to begin with. Indy is both up and down hills. They just can say, we will go on Indy without you, because then they have to use the regular line. Just as if they didn't have a chair.

And this is PRECISELY why it is totally, completely, ridiculously unfair to ask people with disabilities to use a wheelchair if they are able to walk in on their own power. Don't you see? The wheelchair does not give us equal access. If a wheelchair made things easier, we would already be doing that.

Forbin
01-22-2004, 08:35 AM
Teri,

And this is PRECISELY why it is totally, completely, ridiculously unfair to ask people with disabilities to use a wheelchair if they are able to walk in on their own power. Don't you see? The wheelchair does not give us equal access. If a wheelchair made things easier, we would already be doing that.
Like I said before, my comments for those posts have NOTHING to do with how hard the SAC is on people who deserve it. Things have changed since Dec 1st and once I see someone not get the SAC because of a legitimate reason (well one I was aware of at the time), I will talk to that person to help them get an SAC from all the knowledge I got here. My comments had nothing to do with forcing people to rent a wheelchair.

But these comments is based on the abusers, the people who rent a wheelchair just to abandon it, by tying the SAC to the wheelchair instead of giving out a seperate SAC is a wonderful idea. It keeps the people really in wheelchairs with an SAC and that couple who posted earlier about renting one and dumping it, without one. I even suspect that the policy changed right after that guy posted about what he did.

You might have a legitimate statement, but you took my comments out of context and applied it to a whole different issue.

hazlnut
01-23-2004, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by Forbin
You might have a legitimate statement, but you took my comments out of context and applied it to a whole different issue.

My wife and I have saying when we're kidding each other about different things:

"Welcome to my world."

Forbin
01-23-2004, 10:59 AM
Hehe

I just didn't want any padders out there to think that I was ignoring Teri's statements. They just were innapropriate for that discussion.

teri
01-23-2004, 11:14 AM
Not inappropriate in the least. The comment is directly appropriate to the discussion at hand. Telling people who have endurance issues that they will have to use a wheelchair if they want to be able to ride the rides is outrageous, for the very reasons *you described* as obstacles for people who would be abusers who subsequently abandon wheelchairs.

ToursbabeC3po
01-23-2004, 11:43 AM
Not inappropriate in the least. The comment is directly appropriate to the discussion at hand. Telling people who have endurance issues that they will have to use a wheelchair if they want to be able to ride the rides is outrageous, for the very reasons *you described* as obstacles for people who would be abusers who subsequently abandon wheelchairs.

Teri Where did you here that if you have an endurance issue you have to use a wheelchair to ride the rides? City hall suggest that you use a wheel chair because the walk between each attraction is normally alot further then the wait in the que that is all....You can say no I don't need a wheel chair can't you? No one is making you do anything. Anyone can ride the rides without a wheelchair. If you go to the park right now the wait's are less then five minutes too...all week long (except fri and sat.) GO enjoy the park now while it is not busy that is what I am doing with my kids they love it! They run around from ride to ride and I sit on a bench LOL.

Forbin
01-23-2004, 12:49 PM
Umm Toursbabe, Teri hasn't been to DL in over 7 months.

She's going on December information where people were told to get a wheelchair. I don't know what the current info is, but I haven't seen anyone directed to get a wheelchair yet.

The only answers I've seen so far

Yes you can have a SAC.
No we do not have the SAP program anymore.
Oh you have a wheelchair, that's your SAC, it's Automatic.
Sorry maam, we do not have Front of the Line Passes.

hazlnut
01-23-2004, 12:59 PM
Endurance issues. Disabilities. Abusers. Cheaters.

A lot of labels have been tossed around on this thread, and I'm not sure everyone has a clear idea of what exactly they all mean.

We all know what *we* mean when we say something, but others may have a different definition of the same word.

I think we need to distinguish between so-called ‘endurance issues’ and disabilities--there may be a good deal of overlap here but not everybody claiming endurance issue would fall under the legal (CA state law) definition of a Disabled Person.

Also…

I think a distinction needs to be made between the Cheater and the Abusers of the 'old' system.

A cheater (to me) is someone who told an outright lie to gain an SAP. They fake or lie about a condition to get something they should not have at all.

But the abuser...

If DL was giving out 1000 SAP's/day and WDW, on average, gives out 200 in all 4 parks--that's a difference around 800+ people. (Not taking into account 1.5 vs. 4 parks).

Were those 800 people and their families all cheaters? No, I don't think so.

Many of them might have been 'abusers', as described in a MiceAge article on the subject, people who have a less severe issue, situation, or condition that qualified them for the 'old' SAP, thus allowing them to get on more rides in less time than the other guests. (e.g. arriving at 5:30 on a Sat. afternoon and expecting to get on attractions w/o little or no wait.) They enjoyed the perk. They got used to this perk. But, in reality, before they started getting it, they got by okay without it--maybe by planning fewer visits and working around the crowds as many of us do.

I noticed this thread is 410+ posts long. Lots of people have chimed in about why they or their friends absolutely still need an SAP/SAC-type pass, (I believe and sympathize with everyone of those stories because I take people at their word)--but is there anyone out there who used to get the 'old' SAP and now realizes they didn't really need it?

dghosthost
01-23-2004, 01:55 PM
but is there anyone out there who used to get the 'old' SAP and now realizes they didn't really need it?

My sister claims she doesn't need it. I beg to differ after dealing with her moods and pain etc. but....

teri
01-23-2004, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by ToursbabeC3po
City hall suggest that you use a wheel chair because the walk between each attraction is normally alot further then the wait in the que that is all....You can say no I don't need a wheel chair can't you?

This is utter and complete nonsense. Nonsense! At Disneyland the walk between attractions is *maybe* 2 minutes at the very most. The wait times during regular seasons can be *much* longer than that, in dark and close switchback queues with inclines and uneven floors. A person who has difficulty standing for long periods of time will have a much harder time standing in the line than they ever would walking between attractions. What is the crime about sitting on a bench, versus sitting in a wheelchair?

If they have dropped this "Get a wheelchair" nonsense, great. If they are saying "We don't give Front-of-line passes" rather than offering alternative access under a fair system, then they should be ashamed of themselves.

Now,

If DL was giving out 1000 SAP's/day and WDW, on average, gives out 200 in all 4 parks--that's a difference around 800+ people. (Not taking into account 1.5 vs. 4 parks).

This is also nonsense. If you look at the articles where they say this, you note that they say that WDW gives out an average of 200 per day, where at Disneyland ON SOME DAYS IT GETS AS HIGH AS 1000. How can anyone defend statistics like that? Gimme a break. People, WDW is different from Disneyland. At WDW, locals get their GAC for 3 months, not on every visit. There are multi-day visitors in the resorts who get their GAC for the length of stay of their trip. And, most important of all, WDW is very nearly totally accessible to the vast majority of disabled guests. They most definitely do NOT give GACs to people in wheelchairs UNLESS there is a medical reason to avoid the mainstream queues. Comparing the SAC to the GAC is comparing bitter green apple to ripe orange.

hazlnut
01-23-2004, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by teri
This is also nonsense... Comparing the SAC to the GAC is comparing bitter green apple to ripe orange.

Again, we're having a problem of definitions/semantics.

My Post and the article mentioned made comparisons between the 'old' SAP and WDW's GAC. The SAC was not mentioned in my post.

I agree that some of the factors you mentioned, the differences between the two resorts and their guests, may contribute to the differing numbers... but even with more conservative estimates, say 600-800 SAP's given out at DLR to 200 GAC's at WDW, the numbers still point to a huge abuse problem which DLR had to address.

The pictures of the SAP line coming out the back of Pirates speak for themselves. When I worked Pirates and Mansion we handled maybe 1 wheelchair/special needs an hour--granted, that was before the current AP saturation, but still...

teri
01-23-2004, 06:26 PM
When you say "SAP Line at Pirates" the only thing I can think of is wheelchair visitors and their friends/family. That isn't the SAP line. You see, the way it worked for us was that we would enter through the FP queue.

It used to be that people in wheelchairs did not get SAPs at all -- their wheelchair was enough. When they started insisting that people get the SAP along with the wheelchair, the numbers of SAPs went up. I don't buy your "conservative" estimate.

When there was abuse (as you define it) it resulted from the one-size-fits-all unrestricted SAP. They could very easily have made differentiated SACs and put in return-time restrictions which would have made abuse and cheating a non-issue. The long lines are made worse by the saturation of the APs and cut-rate promotional tickets in SoCal, plus the maintenance cutbacks that lead to reductions in the number of ride vehicles operating, which created longer wait times, and the FastPass hoarding craze.

hazlnut
01-23-2004, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by teri
When you say "SAP Line at Pirates" the only thing I can think of is wheelchair visitors and their friends/family. That isn't the SAP line. You see, the way it worked for us was that we would enter through the FP queue.

See first two pics here: http://www.miceage.com/allutz/al122303a.htm

hazlnut
01-23-2004, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by teri
It used to be that people in wheelchairs did not get SAPs at all -- their wheelchair was enough.

Yes, I know. I was a CM when that was the policy and on Pirates we did maybe 1 /hour.

hazlnut
01-23-2004, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by teri
I don't buy your "conservative" estimate.

Fair enough. What would estimate the number to be?

GAC's/Day @ WDW:?

SAP's/DAY @ DLR:? (pre-DEC '03)

hazlnut
01-23-2004, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by teri
When there was abuse (as you define it) it resulted from the one-size-fits-all unrestricted SAP. They could very easily have made differentiated SACs and put in return-time restrictions which would have made abuse and cheating a non-issue. The long lines are made worse by the saturation of the APs and cut-rate promotional tickets in SoCal, plus the maintenance cutbacks that lead to reductions in the number of ride vehicles operating, which created longer wait times, and the FastPass hoarding craze.

AP's, promos, and cutbacks do create longer lines (I'm not sure what exactly the FP hoarding craze is) anyway, but they can in no way explain or account for the huge volume of SAP's given out pre 'new' policy.

You can choose not to accept the numbers quoted by myself and others on this thread but, those of us living in SoCal all saw the lines of people (not all in wheelchairs) coming out of POC, IASM, SM, etc., not to mention the line coming out of City Hall--none of which existed several years ago. Word got out, and people took advantage of the situation.