PDA

View Full Version : Disneyland has implemented the new SAP program



Pages : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 [12] 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29

teri
01-13-2004, 01:34 PM
wonderful, in fact Disney does provide GACs for people with visual impairments so the can get front/center seating at shows. They have braille guidebooks, audio guide tapes and they allow service animals. they have designated break areas for service animals. Yes, in fact, they do make special provisions for blind visitors.

They have interpreters available for deaf visitors, as well as assistive listening devices and written scripts.

It isn't about fixing people's disability. It is about making the park accessible to people with varying disabilities, with the least amount of drama and impact on their vacation time. I don't want the drama with the CMs on the front line. I dont' care for the inquisition. I have no desire whatsoever to negotiate or describe my issues with every CM from whom I may need information or assistance -- THAT is the point! I would prefer to keep that private, thank you. I should not be forced to sit in a wheelchair to get access to a ride when I can walk in on my own power, when it is my time. That is what the GAC is all about at WDW.

LSPoorEeyorick
01-13-2004, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by wonderful
Well, in the big picture, is it THAT important that DLR give a person an SAC?

Abso-(deleted infix)-lutely. A suggestion otherwise sounds like a suggestion coming from someone who has never had to deal with disability personally or familially.

Yes; someone who loves Disneyland as a whole loves more than the rides. To not allow a disabled person to enjoy those rides is, in my opinion, wrong.

I am speaking, in this instance, of my mother, a long-time Disney fan. Because she currently has a blood disease called ITP which causes extreme exhaustion and internal bleeding, because she is currently under radiation treatment for breast cancer, because her Deep Vein Thrombosis has killed her leg arteries and rendering her incapable of walking (let alone the exhaustion doing the same in a less-visible way), she should have to forgo her beloved Pirates of the Caribbean because she does not have the strength to wait in line? Yes, she has a wheelchair. But also, she only has a few hours of energy in a day.

I am not asking for ridiculous special treatment. I am HAPPY that they realized the flaws within the original plan. But I am asking for the WDW system which would allow her to rest comfortably while a fastpass-like card held her place in the line disability line.

These personal examples, mine and the others' before mine, are the reason people are so offended by suggestions that the disabled should 'make do' or 'make different choices,' and why they so fiercely defend the need for fair treatment.

wonderful
01-13-2004, 04:33 PM
"A suggestion otherwise sounds like a suggestion coming from someone who has never had to deal with disability personally or familially."

Just to clarify, I have stated in two other posts that my best friends are disabled and my mother is also disabled... that does not make me an expert, but I wanted to point this out. Like I said before, IF this is the battle you or anyone else wants, have at it-- I happen to think a little patience in this case would serve everyone best... no amount of grunting and moaning is going to make DLR change their minds (that might've had an effect with the old management, but not this one...), but well thought out letters to the Resort just "might" lean an ear or two... and a well planned out trip might make the point, again, moot.

poohbunnieshutch
01-13-2004, 05:09 PM
"Their dad was paralyzed from the neck down and all of us would come to the park together and have a good time going to one or two attractions, using FASTPASS: we were there to have a good time and we DID. I believe it is really your mindset-- not the "magic" an SAC can do."

I am curious, how did your friends access the ride using FP, through the FP line? Because there are few and far between rides that are accessible to people in wheelchairs except through the SAP/SAC entrance. And since your friends father is paralyzed from the neck down, he would have to be in a chair, wouldn't he?

The SAP/SAC entrance will not accept FP for entrance, so I am curious as to how you used those to gain access to the SAC entrance.

Unfortunately, those who oppose the SAP/SAC system are most likely unaware that for the most with disabilities, rides are not accessible except through the exit and that the boarding is not immediate. This is equal access, not special access and those who have deemed the SAP/SAC a FOTL pass and special access are those who have made the system a system of priviledge through their abuse of the system. When it works, the impact on the regular guest is minimal and the boarding is rarely immediate as rides have a limit of handicapped guests that they can have on a ride at any one time. This is for the safety of ablebodied riders and disabled riders alike.

David R
01-13-2004, 07:42 PM
After reading this thread almost completely, I think that the easiest thing to do would be to ask disabled guests (wheelchairs, endurance issues, etc) go to the entrance and get a pass equal to the time of standby line.

That way those people can have 1 FP and 1 Standby Pass at the same time, which is the same as what non-disabled people can do (hold 1 FP while you wait in 1 Standby line). Equal waits for everybody.

When the disabled guest presents the standby pass, they are sent directly to the front of the line since they have waited their turn.

dghosthost
01-13-2004, 07:47 PM
David, although I agree with you we need seating as well. There is simply not enough seating for all those SAC people. It shouldn't take more than 3 weeks to install benches, then please...

bring your idea on!!!!

David R
01-13-2004, 07:53 PM
Alright, add shaded seating to my suggestion and we've achieved peace in the land of happiness.

dghosthost
01-13-2004, 07:58 PM
Good luck David. I mentioned this (here i believe) before the change even took effect and was slammed for it.

David R
01-13-2004, 08:03 PM
Really, it sounds like a fair system. Everyone gets to hold 1 fp and wait in 1 line. Equal treatment. I only know two disabled people, but both of them always ask to be treated the same as everyone else. They do agree that the closer parking spaces are nice though :)

dghosthost
01-13-2004, 08:09 PM
i'm the same way. please treat me equal. pleeeeeze. but some still want fotl rights.

i used to be one of them, until i realized what real options were out there. But under harris i knew that TDA would only cut back, and not add things like benches. with the new team-i can now believe that something like this is workable.

(Cap key is broken, i'm not that poor a typist. thanks!)

sleepyjeff
01-13-2004, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by David R
I think that the easiest thing to do would be to ask disabled guests (wheelchairs, endurance issues, etc) go to the entrance and get a pass equal to the time of standby line.

That way those people can have 1 FP and 1 Standby Pass at the same time, which is the same as what non-disabled people can do (hold 1 FP while you wait in 1 Standby line). Equal waits for everybody.

When the disabled guest presents the standby pass, they are sent directly to the front of the line since they have waited their turn.

Finally! A good positive idea.

AVP
01-13-2004, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by David R
When the disabled guest presents the standby pass, they are sent directly to the front of the line since they have waited their turn. David,

Please, PLEASE believe that I am not trying to bash your idea. I truly think that some form of this system is the best alternative. But here's the one major sticking point that I can think of:

According to Cast Members, rides like Space Mountain can only accomodate one guest per cycle who may need extra assistance in case of an evacuation. So, John Doe gets his SAC Fastpass for Space, and returns at the appointed time. To discover that there are 5 parties ahead of him in the SAC return queue. On Space, that's an additional wait of 20-25 minutes, IN ADDITION to the time he spent waiting for his return time. For a ride like Pirates, the SAC return queue can be as long as an hour.

I spent a good half-hour discussing this particular point with someone this morning. The person I was talking to thinks that the park should be able to issue a Fastpass that would have a disabled guest board with the same wait any other guest would experience using Fastpass. So, if there is a 30-minute wait in the SAC return queue, the SAC Fastpass would be issued for the current Fastpass return time MINUS 30 minutes, to make the waits roughly equitable.

(This all causes me to have visions of cast members with calculators trying to determine how long the SAC return queue is that moment, and them trying to do the math to issue the Fastpass for the correct return time.)

Anyway, I agree 100% that something like this needs to happen. I'm all in favor of anything that cuts the abuse, while letting people who truly qualify for special assistance under the ADA get the accomodation they need.

AVP

dsnyredhead
01-13-2004, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by David R
After reading this thread almost completely, I think that the easiest thing to do would be to ask disabled guests (wheelchairs, endurance issues, etc) go to the entrance and get a pass equal to the time of standby line.

That way those people can have 1 FP and 1 Standby Pass at the same time, which is the same as what non-disabled people can do (hold 1 FP while you wait in 1 Standby line). Equal waits for everybody.

When the disabled guest presents the standby pass, they are sent directly to the front of the line since they have waited their turn.

I've used this type of system before at another theme park and it worked well. I'd be perfectly fine with it.

dghosthost
01-13-2004, 09:22 PM
AVP-That's why I mentioned Space earlier. It's odd how many SAP users did not use their passes when the wait is long, isn't it?

teri
01-14-2004, 06:20 AM
AVP, it isn't just Space Mountain. They have a similar provision in some of the dark rides a well, as I recall. Peter Pan is a perfect example. I thought the CMs handled the dark ride access issues very well -- they would allow one party at a time. If there was no line of other disabled guests, they would eyeball the line and put a significant number of guests on the ride who were there first before boarding the SAP guests.

Guest safety is the number one concern. If the ride systems themselves were equally accessible and available, then a simple standby-time return pass system would work, but they will need to upgrade and integrate their systems to a supercomputer to include an SAC return time calculation. It could be done, and if they used a smart chip with a reader, it would be a simple thing to operate. No calculators necessary.

Christiii
01-14-2004, 07:18 AM
I think the old system was fine..IF they required a valid Dr.s note stating the problem and that they really do need assistance...would cost no more money..but be able to weed out cheaters, and leave no rom for argument or judging by the CM's.

hazlnut
01-14-2004, 07:31 AM
Earlier in this thread I posted a dissenting opinion about the 'new' SAC policy and promptly got my head bitten off, first by a super-moderator and then by some other folks who thought I was being insensitive.

Last night, I read the entire thread, every post, and noticed that I was not the first to post an unpopular opinion-- and several of earlier posts seemed much more bluntly put than mine.

But no one even raised an eyebrow. Hmmm.

BTW--thanks wonderful for making sense.

David R
01-14-2004, 07:33 AM
AVP, no problem.

I was unaware that Space Mountain that had limitation.

The way I envision the system is a fastpass-like machine by the entrance that the cast member has access to. The CM scans the ticket/passport and the computer prints out a ticket with a return time equal to the standby line. That way you also make sure that each guest only holds 1 standby pass at a time.

So in case of space mountain, the system would also know how many other disabled guests area due in the ride, and it'll adjust the return time accordingly, asking them to return, for example, 10 minutes before standby since the person will have to wait for 1 or 2 more disabled guests who will already be in the ride.

Of course with this system, sometimes, the disabled guest may get stuck waiting 5 or 10 minutes longer than they would in the standby line (you never know what delays one may encounter when dealing with disabled guests) but at the same time, those same guests may be able to board the ride as soon as they arrive (earlier than the standby line) because a guest with an earlier standby ticket never showed up.

I hope that makes sense. It's all really just a simple computer scheduling program, and I think it's fair to everyone.

David R
01-14-2004, 08:06 AM
I should add that no system is ever going to be perfect nor will it please everyone. We just need to find a fair system that will give disabled guests an experience as close as to that of the able-bodied guests.

teri
01-14-2004, 09:17 AM
hazlnut, it was not my intention to bite your head off, or anyone else's for that matter. I know the law. I know the system. I know the politics. This is a serious matter, and not just at Disneyland.

This 'anti-entitlement' sentiment that is sweeping the country right now is endangering thousands of programs. The argument that an organization is not required to provide 'superior' access and therefore does not need to make sufficient accommodations is a fallacious argument. It is like saying that providing Closed Captioning or interpreters for the deaf gives them a superior sound experience, or providing audio guides and allowing service animals gives blind people a superior visual experience. It just is not right. the accommodations were entirely appropriate for the people who *truly* needed them, and to take them away was a terrible mistake.

These lawyers have taken a page from the playbooks of school district lawyers who knowingly justify not providing special needs kids with the services that are REQUIRED by Federal Law and basically daring parents to sue them, all the while insinuating that the parents are being unreasonable and that what they are requesting is not in the law at all. It is! What Disney has done is is just another version of a wrong-minded legal tactic plus public relations misdirection to try to keep the people who have been wronged off balance and on the defensive.

They are wrong. They had better fix it.

adriennek
01-14-2004, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by hazlnut
Earlier in this thread I posted a dissenting opinion about the 'new' SAC policy and promptly got my head bitten off, first by a super-moderator and then by some other folks who thought I was being insensitive.

Last night, I read the entire thread, every post, and noticed that I was not the first to post an unpopular opinion-- and several of earlier posts seemed much more bluntly put than mine.

But no one even raised an eyebrow. Hmmm.

BTW--thanks wonderful for making sense.

If you're suggesting that you're being picked on, that's going to have to be your issue. I come and go on these discussions as my sanity and the appropriateness of my comments allow.

Not that I have to defend my actions to anyone, but for the record, go read the TAG forum. I've made some comments disagreeing with posters there, too. I do not believe you're the victim of a bunch of people out to get you.

Adrienne

ToursbabeC3po
01-14-2004, 10:58 AM
I had no problem getting a pass yesterday. I walked in showed them my handicap placard and told them my disability and they handed me a pass like they always have..... And I did not have my autisitic son with me it was for my disability....

cstephens
01-14-2004, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by hazlnut
Earlier in this thread I posted a dissenting opinion about the 'new' SAC policy and promptly got my head bitten off, first by a super-moderator and then by some other folks who thought I was being insensitive.

Last night, I read the entire thread, every post, and noticed that I was not the first to post an unpopular opinion-- and several of earlier posts seemed much more bluntly put than mine.

But no one even raised an eyebrow. Hmmm.

You do know there are multiple topics on this particular subject, right, and that there has been a lot of discussion back and forth?

And I'd disagree that anyone bit your head off. You were disagreed with, sometimes fairly stringently, partly because you were equating the temporary situations of your young children and pregnant wife with the more permanent situations of others. And, from my observation, anyone who has suggested that if you're not totally abled-bodied then you shouldn't go to Disneyland has pretty much met with extreme opposition.

hazlnut
01-14-2004, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by cstephens
You were disagreed with, sometimes fairly stringently, partly because you were equating the temporary situations of your young children and pregnant wife with the more permanent situations of others. And, from my observation, anyone who has suggested that if you're not totally abled-bodied then you shouldn't go to Disneyland has pretty much met with extreme opposition.

the only equating that was done was by others misreading my post--I only pointed out how we all have to plan our visits for what works best

and I never suggested anything of the sort. again, putting words into my mouth--highly irritating.

Disagree with me, fine. But disagree with me for what I actually said.

hazlnut
01-14-2004, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by adriennek
Not that I have to defend my actions to anyone, but for the record, go read the TAG forum. I've made some comments disagreeing with posters there, too. I do not believe you're the victim of a bunch of people out to get you.

Neither do I--just making an observation.

But I do think, when a moderator casts the first stone, it makes it easier for others to follow suit, and, sometimes, get a little loosey-goosey with the rules of decorum.