Unauthorized Usage of Disneyland Pass on Ebay

[DisneyFan25863]

Originally posted by Omar
Cadaverous Pallor why would you think that stealing would be right in any situation?

Omar


Actually, she (see above post) was responding to one of hazlenut's posts, where she interperted his quote as saying that.

[dude]

I just read all this thread, including the eBay listing, which has been closed by the seller. This is how I see it:

The seller had 4 months left on the pass, knowing they were not going to use those 4 months and decided to go on eBay and sell it to try and make some money back. NO. BAD. NOT GOOD. Like it says on the pass "This NONTRANSFERRABLE passport is property of Disneyland Resort..." As has already been stated, the AP is not yours to sell. It is Disney's property, and you paid in advance for a year's "lease" if you will, from Disney to use their theme parks. If you aren't going to use the last 4 months of the "lease", then too bad. Chances are that you went enough times in the other 8 months to make up for the price you paid for the pass initially, which totally voids the argument that "I want some money back".

Bottom line: Selling the AP is wrong because it is not yours to sell. Can legal action be taken? I don't know. Can your pass be revoked if you don't follow the rules? Absolutley. Should anything be done about people attempting to transfer an AP? Yes. The pass should be revoked to ensure there is no transfer.

PS Even if a pass got transferred, you have to look exactly like the photo. My brother had a photo on his pass from when he was 10 (he's now 13) because we renewed by mail. He got questioned at the turnstiles FOR TRYING TO USE HIS OWN PASS. They requested an alternate ID, and after that was shown, they asked him to go and get his picture updated. So there.

[Pat-n-Eil]

Political Corectness is ruining civil society.

"Non-Transferrable" is self-explanatory and anyone who argues whether or not it is illegal or just "against the rules" is missing the whole point.

Fraud is illegal. Therefore selling the AP is illegal. Furthermore, the seller knows it is illegal by the phrasing used in that bid. Why would the buyer have to beware that they may not be able to use the pass? Because Disneyland does not allow it. Is it illegal to stand up in the Splash Mountain logs? Probably not on the books of Orange County Penal Code but certainly against the rules (and for good reason).

A Family with enough disposable income to have annual passes, a computer and multiple sales on ebay is not living on the street scrimping to find money for their next meal. A little common sense goes a long way here. There is no need to try and discover the circumstances of the seller to know that what they are doing should not be allowed.

Mass murderers get marriage proposals from people who try to see past the facts into a fantasy story they create to try and understand why the murderer did what they did.. but in doing so, they completely disregard the larger truth that the murderer is a murderer. It is really pretty simple.

Stop pampering the sociopaths and those with complete disregard for others in the quest for their own satisfaction. If it walks, quacks and looks like a duck.. it's a duck. (and not Donald, either).

[danyoung]

Originally posted by Bill Catherall
Maybe it's your vodka, but "heard" is definitely a word...or so I've heard.

Good Lord, I've gotta make it a rule to NEVER touch the keyboard after the 3rd martini!!!
:cool:

[Nephythys]

Originally posted by hazlnut
Yeah, um, it seems Neph is carrying around some bags he's saying belong to me, but...I've never seen them before, so I think he should take them to lost and found.;)


No- but I am not going to get into another circular argument with you.

Look- I am sorry I called you arrogant, but it sure looks to me as if you think you can say one thing then try to tell us you did not really mean it or that you did not mean what many of us think you mean- looks like wiggling to me.

But this is not about YOU- it's about the fact that someone selling an AP is wrong.

BTW- I don't know who this "he" you are referring to is, I am not a "he"-

[hazlnut]

Congrats, we did it!!!!!!!!!!!!

We made it to page six.

Ladies and Gentlebodies, it has been a long and arduous journey, and I, for one, am proud to have served with you, my fellow posters. Why, it seems like only a few days ago that we were on page one, beginning what was to be something no one expected. Yes, there have been those that jumped in late and repeated what others already said. Bully for them, it's their need to deposit two cents that got us here.

If we have learned anything, it’s that trying to sell an unused portion of your AP is not good and that some people feel more strongly than others to what degree of not goodness it is.

To all my fellow posters, I salute you.

:fez: ;) :)

[WhenInRome]

Originally posted by hazlnut
I did. IMHO--That's really stretching it--a person selling a unused portion of their AP somehow negatively impacting the rest of us--Come on...:confused:


As a Disney Stock Holder I see it this way. The person selling the unused portion of their annual passport doesn't directly have an impact on me (except maybe morally & ethically to the good of society in general). HOWEVER, the person using the fraudulent passport to obtain admission into the park is stealing. Stealing from the Disney Company ( & it's shareholders, i.e. ME) of money they would have had to pay to get in the park.

[MonorailMan]

Originally posted by hazlnut
We made it to page six.


Actually, it depends how many posts per page you have set in your User Control Panel. ;)
I'm on page 3.

[tracilicious]

Originally posted by MonorailMan
Actually, it depends how many posts per page you have set in your User Control Panel. ;)
I'm on page 3.


what? you can do that? :confused:

[Not Afraid]

Originally posted by Bill Catherall
Continuing to play devil's advocate here: What if the pass still has 4 months left, but the seller doesn't intend to ever use it again and still sells it as a souvenir, and specifically states in the listing that it is non-transferable and the buyer will not be able to use it to get into the park. Is it still illegal?

Monorail Man answered it pretty succinctly, but, in legal terms, I believe it would all come down to "intent". The INTENT, on the seller's part, was not to transfer the pass to another person but to sell it as an object for another purpose (display, collection, etc.), NOT as an object useable for it's original intent.


Another Hypothetical Situation:

What if the Buyer makes copies of the AP on to hard cards (like the ones the AP's come on), and sell those on EBay, and keeps the orginal for his own use?

I would think that there are two factors at work here. First, the intent issue would apply, and, secondly, if the pass was copied and sold as an image (ie: artwork), the it would come down to the copyright of the artwork, image, and object itself.

I fear we are going toward Dr. Suess hypotheticals -


You could sell it as a Pass
You could sell it, it'd be Crass........


;)

[MonorailMan]

Originally posted by tracilicious
what? you can do that? :confused:
Just hit the http://mousepad.mouseplanet.com/images/top_profile.gif (http://mousepad.mouseplanet.com/usercp.php?s=) button on the top.
Then, goto "Edit Options", then look for "Default Posts per Thread". :)

[DL4EVER]

)First of all, I would like to state that selling an AP is wrong. And to anyone who wants to swoop in and play the righteous card and ask how many bad things I've done, I'll address that now. Being 14, I have done a few bad things, nothing serious or anything that would make me another statistic, but I am definitely not innocent. But neither is ANYONE else. But that's beside the main point.

The problem that a lot of the people that seem to be defending the auction and saying that if one uses it for 6 months and someone else uses it for 6 months are missing, is the fact that the auction, as well as the seller, is blatantly putting up false hope of this sold pass actually working. I am no expert, seeing as I have never owned a DL AP, but judging by my Six Flags Season Pass, regardless of the quality of the picture, unless they are just horrible, it is highly unlikely that someone else could get in with it.

To make an analogy of my own of the above point, it would be kinda like me selling my driver's license (when I get it:p :fez: ) on EBAY and saying in the auction that the buyer may be able to use it. I realize that this is an extreme stretch over the situation at hand, but it's the same thing.

If there was no photo on the pass, then this would not be an issue, but from what I have read and what I personally picture in my mind, it is quite obvious these are photo AP's.

Recap: Selling AP's wrong. Saying that the AP might work for the buyer, wrong. Whole auction in general, wrong.

I don't care what they were selling it for, the two things the seller is guilty of in my eyes (not in a legal sense per say) is selling the AP in the first place, but even more when they tried to establish a false hope of it working.

[danyoung]

Originally posted by DL4EVER
)The problem that a lot of the people that seem to be defending the auction and saying that if one uses it for 6 months and someone else uses it for 6 months are missing, is the fact that the auction, as well as the seller, is blatantly putting up false hope of this sold pass actually working.

I'm the guy that brought up the 6 months thing, and I want to make something clear. I am NOT defending the auction, or saying the seller was justified in any way. I was answering the argement that Disney was somehow losing money by this pass being in the hands to 2 different people at 2 different times. It was more of an intellectual discussion, not a defense in any way of the seller. I think everyone, including hazlnut, is in agreement - selling your AP is wrong. There's still some dispute as to whether it actually rises to the level of illegal or whether it's a civil matter, but that's kinda far from the point.

I also want to say, at the risk of sounding patronizing, that based on the quality of your mesage, you have a very good grasp of the English language, and have presented yourself in a manner that speaks of maturity well beyond your 14 years. Nicely done, DL4EVER!

[DL4EVER]

Actually, thank you very much for the compliment. I enjoy writing and recently became a Cross Examination Debater, so I tend to talk that way as well.

I would furthermore like to apologize that I did not clearly get my point across in the portion you quoted. I was meaning to have it written in two parts, where some people were defending the auction itself (it did indeed happen earlier in this discussion, I'm not saying that people were defending the seller or anything, but the auction itself) and some people still thought Disney would be making money.

I further apologize that part of my post was written in and could be interpreted in an offensive tone, such as the portion that was quoted. I should not personally dissect and attack certain people over certain things, so I apologize.

I am glad that we can all agree on the fact that selling an AP is wrong, and I am sorry that I did not read clearly enough to realize that the only major fact remaining is whether it is on the legal level or not.

[tracilicious]

Originally posted by MonorailMan
Just hit the http://mousepad.mouseplanet.com/images/top_profile.gif (http://mousepad.mouseplanet.com/usercp.php?s=) button on the top.
Then, goto "Edit Options", then look for "Default Posts per Thread". :)

thanks MM!

[Not Afraid]

Originally posted by DL4EVER
I am sorry that I did not read clearly enough to realize that the only major fact remaining is whether it is on the legal level or not.

I think we've beaten this horse quite a bit as well.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Originally posted by hazlnut
And, hey, calling things wrong and then turning a blind eye is a national pastime, man. I mean, come on! Turn on CNN.

Not hypocritical. American, baby! Now who's the sheep? I know you are "kidding", but while I make jokes about the decline in American morals, I don't associate myself with it.

I hate it when people insult me and say put smilies next to them, as if that allows any impoliteness. I could dig up the things you said that were obviously over the line but it's just not worth it.

If I'm so bad at paraphrasing, perhaps you could paraphrase yourself? If "It's ok to steal when you're down on your luck" is wrong, perhaps you could finish the sentence:

"It's ok to turn a blind eye to theft when...."

Oh, and I just LOVE how you keep calling Neph and I men. We are both women, hence the jokes regarding being a gentleman.

Omar, just to make sure you understand (although it's throughout this thread), my statement was saying what hazlnut said, and I don't agree.

The horse is dead, and I leave hazlnut to spin around and around without me.

[danyoung]

Originally posted by DL4EVER
I am glad that we can all agree on the fact that selling an AP is wrong, and I am sorry that I did not read clearly enough to realize that the only major fact remaining is whether it is on the legal level or not.

Don't think twice about it. I've found that it pays to be absolutely, STUNNINGLY CLEAR about what points I did or didn't make, as these threads can turn on a dime, and a simple, light-hearted discussion can nosedive into a bitter, name-calling Hatifeld & McCoy. This thread didn't quite make it to that level, but I just wanted you to be sure where I stood. Thanks for your apology anyway, even though I took no offense.

[Darkbeer]

I found this E-Bay auction at April Winchell's site, you HAVE to read the caption...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2972558641&category=43463&rd=1

:fez:

[timl33]

This little exchange reminded me of something I heard a while back:

"Bart, is it wrong to steal a loaf of bread to feed your family?"
"No."
"What if your family was really big? Would it be wrong to steal a truckload of bread?"
"I guess not."
"What if your family didn't like bread--they liked cigarettes. Would that still be wrong?"
"I guess that's okay."
"And what if, instead of giving the cigarettes away, you sold them at a price that was LIKE giving them away?"
"I guess that would be okay, Fat Tony."



Originally posted by Cadaverous Pallor

You want a quote?

May I translate one more time?
"It is ok to steal if you are down on your luck." I do not agree.

Period.

[hazlnut]

Originally posted by Darkbeer
I found this E-Bay auction at April Winchell's site, you HAVE to read the caption...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2972558641&category=43463&rd=1

:fez:

That's classic!

[hazlnut]

Originally posted by Cadaverous Pallor
If I'm so bad at paraphrasing, perhaps you could paraphrase yourself? If "It's ok to steal when you're down on your luck" is wrong, perhaps you could finish the sentence:

"It's ok to turn a blind eye to theft when...."


CP, did you ever see a film called Dog Day Afternoon?



Oh, and
(Austin Powers voice)
Sorry about calling you a man, baby.

[cstephens]

Originally posted by hazlnut
CP, did you ever see a film called Dog Day Afternoon?

Oh, and
(Austin Powers voice)
Sorry about calling you a man, baby.

Do you ever speak for yourself, or do you always have to refer to movies to say what you think you want to say?

[hazlnut]

Originally posted by cstephens
Do you ever speak for yourself, or do you always have to refer to movies to say what you think you want to say?

Always??:confused:

Do I ever speak for myself...? What does that mean?

For whom, exactly, am I speaking when I allude to a film?
:confused:

[Kevy Baby]

hazelnet said:

Sure, it is illegal. But, with so many people out of work, on strike, etc., families can find themselves against the wall this time of year.

If someone wants to make a few bucks to give their kids a better holiday or pay some bills--none of us know what the story is here, they may really need the money, what does it hurt to turn a blind eye on this one?
To which Cadaverous Pallor replied:

May I translate one more time?
"It is ok to steal if you are down on your luck."
To which hazelnut said:

Again with the words in the mouth. It's like some kinda compulsion with you, man. What's the deal?

Please, I beg of thee, sir, do not translate, interpret, or paraphrase for me anymore. You're absolutely terrible at it.
I don't know. Sounds like Cadaverous Pallor pretty much hit the nail on the head. I thought she did a great job of interpreting (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=interpreting) and/or paraphrasing (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=paraphrase) you. (I don't think she was trying to translate (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=translate) though.)