Unauthorized Usage of Disneyland Pass on Ebay

[Demigod121]

WOW! Seeing as everyone else has had a HECK of a lot to say about this, let me add my $0.02 worth:

1. I believe that selling the AP is WRONG.

2. No matter how you try to sweeten it up, cover it up, call it criminal or civil...ITS WRONG. Stated CLEARLY on the AP.

3. The darned seller's Ebay rating is in the HUNDREDS! COME ON! They are in this to make money!

Now, granted, this may have been an honest mistake. Maybe the person selling the AP didn't think to look on the AP to see if it was ok. But still, that doesn't mean it's not WRONG.

When you pay for the AP - you DO NOT 'buy' it. You are paying for the PRIVILEDGE of being able to enter DL whenever you want. It can be revoked at any time for any reason. It is not yours to SELL.

Selling the AP (to me) is like lending your driver's license to your friend (who either does not have one or has had theirs revoked) so they can drive. WRONG WRONG WRONG.

-Demigod :)

[Bill Catherall]

Originally posted by Not Afraid
Sure, your pass could be revoked and the moral police might arrest you, but that does not make it illegal to switch, share, sell, etc. your AP. Is it illegal to jump the fence and sneak into the park? What about sneaking into the exit of a movie theater? Cheating the system and getting in with a non-transferable pass is the same thing. So if jumping the fence is illegal than using the non-transferable pass would be illegal as well.

The only injustice I see in that eBay auction was that the seller was misrepresenting the item for auction. The auction states, "...there is a chance, although small [Bahahahaha!], that you might not be able to use this pass." It doesn't say that the pass is non-transferable and that you have to look just like the person in the picture. Therefore, an unaware buyer would get cheated.

And I'm a big fan of giving people the benefit of the doubt (as I've discussed in another thread), but when potentially illegal activity is involved or people are getting cheated...well, there's no excuse for that.

[Disneyphile]

Originally posted by Cadaverous Pallor
Thanks so much for labeling me and anyone else that decides to oppose you.
CP, don't you know that posting insults on an internet message board is the only way some level-headed people feel better about themselves?? Come on, girl!!! Where's your sense of Christian charity? Let people like that have their spotlight in the cyberworld. Everyone has a right to feel special, ya know. ;)

[Demigod121]

Originally posted by Bill Catherall
The only injustice I see in that eBay auction was that the seller was misrepresenting the item for auction. The auction states, "...there is a chance, although small [Bahahahaha!], that you might not be able to use this pass." It doesn't say that the pass is non-transferable and that you have to look just like the person in the picture. Therefore, an unaware buyer would get cheated.

Thanks, Bill! You just proved that the seller KNEW ALL ALONG that this was wrong! Shoots my 'honest mistake' theory right out the window. :D

So that also shoots down anyone else's theory that the seller might be unaware that the AP is nontransferable. The seller knew that this was fradulent from the start and was trying to 'get one over on Disney'.

There went any sympathy I MIGHT have had for the seller (there was none, BTW!)

-Demigod

[Nephythys]

Originally posted by hazlnut
Dan, it appears that levelheaded folk, like you and I, who are not afraid to question the direction of the heard, are severely outnumbered here.

As soon at the sheep dogs look the other way, I'm going to make a break for those trees and see if I can find my way back to planet earth...

:D :)

Yeah, insulting us when you get caught in your own brand of illogical arrogance is just so helpful. Looks to me like the people who quoted you knew exactly what they were doing.

This is just like the BTMRR issue. You said clearly you would applaud them shutting it forever, then tried to wiggle away from it later.

You can't have it both ways.:rolleyes:

[Not Afraid]

Originally posted by Bill Catherall
Is it illegal to jump the fence and sneak into the park? What about sneaking into the exit of a movie theater? Cheating the system and getting in with a non-transferable pass is the same thing. So if jumping the fence is illegal than using the non-transferable pass would be illegal as well.


I just received a better analogy that answers my query without question. (Not that yours weren't good, Bill, just that they weren't as "absolute" for lack of a better word as I was looking for.

The Pass is "Property of Disney" - it says so on the actual pass. You have paid for "usage" or "Rental" of that pass under the Passholder agreement. So, therefor, you do not OWN the pass and it is not yours to sell.

Selling your pass would be akin to selling someone else's car without their permission. Or, perhaps, me selling the Vincent Thomas Bridge to the highest bidder. Neither are mine to sell.

This makes more sense to me from a legal standpoint. This is outright fraud.

So, FRAUD. Boo. Hiss. Bad.

[Bill Catherall]

Originally posted by Not Afraid
I just received a better analogy that answers my query without question. (Not that yours weren't good, Bill, just that they weren't as "absolute" for lack of a better word as I was looking for. Well, my analogies were really in the form of a question. Basically, I don't know whether using a non-transferable pass is illegal, but it is against the rules. I was just looking at it from the perspective of using the pass and not selling it. The same thing can be applied to letting your friend borrow it. Is it illegal or just against the rules? ("Illegal" implies that action can be taken against you in court. "Against the rules" just means that Disney doesn't like it and you'll get kicked out of the park and they won't like you coming back in, but they can't take you to court over it.)

Also, I think we've established that selling your pass for someone else to use is not a good thing. But what if someone wants to auction an expired pass as a souvenir, and is upfront about it not being a usable pass?

[hazlnut]

Originally posted by Nephythys
Yeah, insulting us when you get caught in your own brand of illogical arrogance is just so helpful. Looks to me like the people who quoted you knew exactly what they were doing.
This is just like the BTMRR issue. You said clearly you would applaud them shutting it forever, then tried to wiggle away from it later.
You can't have it both ways.:rolleyes:


Originally posted by Cadaverous Pallor
Wow. Danyoung asked us not to beat each other up.....I stated that I do not resort to name calling.....and now you have lowered yourself to such tactics.
I will not take part in ad hominem arguments. If you want to insult me, I'm out of here. Thanks so much for labeling me and anyone else that decides to oppose you.
I've said as much as can be said anyway. And I'm doing a really good job of restraining myself from saying even more right now.
:|

Look, CP and Neph, I've worked very hard on including smiley faces and winkie faces so as to signal Just Kidding, People.

It's a fun discussion guys and I'm sorry if you took it differently. By the sheep comment, I mean Dan and I don't seem to fit in here. The smilie wink things at the end were supposed to signal my tone.

As far as wiggle out of anything, what the heck are you talking about, Neph?

Check it out. I came up with a way that you might be able to see where I'm coming from. Not agree with me, mind you, but see my point. Follow my instructions to the letter.

1) Go back and read the OP and the first 16 or so posts up to my first post on this thread.

2) Do you notice anything? I did. Just about everyone formed a negative opinion about the seller: "I can't quite believe these people"...
"that's just wrong on so many levels"... "this person is whoring off their own child!" Blah, blah, blah... Very negative, assuming the worst.

3) Now read my response. What did I say? This is illegal (wrong whatever). But now notice how my reply was the first one not to assume the worst in people. Without having seen the auction page, when I heard "parent selling child's AP" my first thought was, that's so sad, they must really need the money.

Was it so horrible for me to say, why are we making a federal case out of this, maybe there's more to it than we know?

Now, some of you went so far as to dig up the dirt about a recent purchase made the master criminal seller. Bully for you. Maybe that proves something, maybe it doesn't.

Find a me a post in this thread where I say something other than:
1)It's wrong, not right, shouldn't be done, etc.
2)But is it really that big of a deal, federal case, etc.
3)Maybe these folks aren't all that bad. Who knows? I don't.
4)DL is cool.
5)I'm a black sheep in a white heard.

If you do, I hereby allow you to call me a wiggler for the next 24 hours. If you don't, then let's all join hands and sing...

Dreidel, Dreidel, Dreidel...I have a little dreidel I made it
out of clay And when it's dry and ready Then dreidel I shall play!

[danyoung]

Originally posted by hazlnut
It's a fun discussion guys and I'm sorry if you took it differently. By the sheep comment, I mean Dan and I don't seem to fit in here. The smilie wink things at the end were supposed to signal my tone.

Well, I've been with you up to a point, hazlnut, but I gotta branch out here. I think I fit in perfectly here. Look at my sig - it says Senior Member. I didn't put that in - the system did. I've been here a LONG time. Do I think you've been mistreated in this thread - yes, I do. Do I know your past, and the oft mentioned BTMRR thread - no, I don't. All I can do is respond to what you're saying, and what others are saying back. Seems there's a bit of baggage from the past here.

I've been enjoying this very busy thread all day today, a day that's been filled with stress, heavy responsibility, and much-welcomed success for me personally (it's really been a cool day!). But I mean what I said earlier - just because there's a difference of opinion, there shouldn't be a breakdown of civilized behavior. And I address that to ALL posters here! (And haughty as that sounds, I've got no authority whatsoever - just one of the guys.) Make yer points, but don't be gettin' nasty!

[Not Afraid]

Originally posted by Bill Catherall
But what if someone wants to auction an expired pass as a souvenir, and is upfront about it not being a usable pass?

The pass, at that point, has none of it's intended value left. If it becomes valuable, it is for a very different reason, usually not controlled by Disney. It is like a photo of that car I sold that wasn't mine. It's a valuable souvineer.

[hazlnut]

Originally posted by danyoung
Well, I've been with you up to a point, hazlnut, but I gotta branch out here. I think I fit in perfectly here. Look at my sig - it says Senior Member. I didn't put that in - the system did.

I mean our way of seeing the issues under discussion doesn't jive with the others. We break from the heard on this one, so to speak.

I did not mean you don't belong or are an outsider in any way.

Sorry for not being more clear.

[hazlnut]

Originally posted by danyoung
Do I know your past, and the oft mentioned BTMRR thread - no, I don't. All I can do is respond to what you're saying, and what others are saying back. Seems there's a bit of baggage from the past here.

Yeah, um, it seems Neph is carrying around some bags he's saying belong to me, but...I've never seen them before, so I think he should take them to lost and found.;)

[cstephens]

Here's me, purposely not posting any sort of actual response.

[danyoung]

Originally posted by hazlnut
I mean our way of seeing the issues under discussion doesn't jive with the others. We break from the heard on this one, so to speak.

I did not mean you don't belong or are an outsider in any way.

Sorry for not being more clear.

OK, so it's come down to this (and I have to say that it's Friday night, I don't gotta date, and I'm pickled on vodka) - it's HERD, not HEARD. If I'm looking at a buncha cattle, then it's a herd. I'm not sure HEARD is a word. Other than that, I got nothing. Love a good argument, but tonight I'm toast.




<hee hee>

Let's pick this up tomorrow. . . . . . . . . . . . . .

[Bill Catherall]

Originally posted by danyoung
I'm not sure HEARD is a word. Maybe it's your vodka, but "heard" is definitely a word...or so I've heard.


Originally posted by Not Afraid
The pass, at that point, has none of it's intended value left. Continuing to play devil's advocate here: What if the pass still has 4 months left, but the seller doesn't intend to ever use it again and still sells it as a souvenir, and specifically states in the listing that it is non-transferable and the buyer will not be able to use it to get into the park. Is it still illegal?

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I really, really shouldn't do this. I wish I had cstephens' conviction. But I don't.

Originally posted by hazlnut
Find a me a post in this thread where I say something other than:
1)It's wrong, not right, shouldn't be done, etc.
2)But is it really that big of a deal, federal case, etc.
3)Maybe these folks aren't all that bad. Who knows? I don't.
4)DL is cool.
5)I'm a black sheep in a white heard.Look, either you think it's wrong, or you don't. I'm not making a big deal, or a federal case. It's the same as shoplifting - not punishable by death, but not a good thing to do. Can't you see that? You can't say something is wrong, and then turn a blind eye. It's hypocritical.

You want a quote?


Sure, it is illegal. But, with so many people out of work, on strike, etc., families can find themselves against the wall this time of year.

If someone wants to make a few bucks to give their kids a better holiday or pay some bills--none of us know what the story is here, they may really need the money, what does it hurt to turn a blind eye on this one?May I translate one more time?
"It is ok to steal if you are down on your luck." I do not agree.

Period.

Oh, and you may not know this, but calling someone a sheep, a follower of the flock, in other words saying someone can't think for themselves or be individuals - is an insult.

[MonorailMan]

Originally posted by Bill Catherall
Continuing to play devil's advocate here: What if the pass still has 4 months left, but the seller doesn't intend to ever use it again and still sells it as a souvenir, and specifically states in the listing that it is non-transferable and the buyer will not be able to use it to get into the park. Is it still illegal?

Ahh! Hypothetical situations. Nice.

No, unless the person buying it tries to use it. As long as it's advertised for a souvenir type item, there's nothing illegal going on.

Now, if the buyer takes it to DL, and expects to get in, then that crosses the line, but the buyer is the one breaking the law. ;)

[DisneyFan25863]

Another Hypothetical Situation:

What if the Buyer makes copies of the AP on to hard cards (like the ones the AP's come on), and sell those on EBay, and keeps the orginal for his own use?

[Omar]

Absolutely right and I just wanted to know what would happen to that person if they tried to get into the park and get caught?

I don't know if anyone would even bid on it. If someone does that would be stupid. If that person who bought it and uses it I hope they get caught because I purchase my annual pass just like everyone else for full price legally.

Omar

[hazlnut]

Originally posted by Cadaverous Pallor
IMay I translate one more time?
"It is ok to steal if you are down on your luck."

Again with the words in the mouth. It's like some kinda compulsion with you, man. What's the deal?

Please, I beg of thee, sir, do not translate, interpret, or paraphrase for me anymore. You're absolutely terrible at it.


:D ;)

[hazlnut]

Originally posted by Cadaverous Pallor
Look, either you think it's wrong, or you don't. I'm not making a big deal, or a federal case. You can't say something is wrong, and then turn a blind eye. It's hypocritical.

How many different ways can I say it: It's wrong!
But in the long history of wrong doing...it's hardly worth a footnote.

And, hey, calling things wrong and then turning a blind eye is a national pastime, man. I mean, come on! Turn on CNN.

Not hypocritical. American, baby!

[Omar]

Originally posted by Cadaverous Pallor
IMay I translate one more time?
"It is ok to steal if you are down on your luck."

If you were down on your luck, that gives you absolutely no reason to steal. If you were up on your luck that still gives you no right to steal! That person has no clue what there in for. Notice that there is no picture of the pass. I say its fake, but thats just me. I don't care if you are God YOU DON'T STEAL! Oh well ebay should take the listing of the pass off at once.

Omar

[hazlnut]

Originally posted by Cadaverous Pallor
IOh, and you may not know this, but calling someone a sheep, a follower of the flock, in other words saying someone can't think for themselves or be individuals - is an insult.

Don't take it too hard. That type of group dynamic can actually be comforting; takes some of the burdon off being wrong.







I was only kidding, for crying out loud. Wink, wink, wink. Smile, smile, smile. Lighten up, CP.
;) :)

[Omar]

Cadaverous Pallor why would you think that stealing would be right in any situation?

Omar

[DisneyFan25863]

Originally posted by hazlnut
Again with the words in the mouth. It's like some kinda compulsion with you, man. What's the deal?

Please, I beg of thee, sir, do not translate, interpret, or paraphrase for me anymore. You're absolutely terrible at it.


:D ;)



You really do have no idea how terribly wrong you are, do you?(Note: For those of you that are black level-headed sheep, please refer to this:

I would vehemently disagree with you that Cadaverous Pallor has been a gentlement at any point in this conversation or any other conducted on this board. )