Unauthorized Usage of Disneyland Pass on Ebay

[hazlnut]

Originally posted by Disneyphile
Granted, Disney might have a LOT more money than these folks, but it is still a form of theft (stealing).

I still can't see how. If you buy something at a garage sale (which essentailly ebay is, a giant garage sale) is it stealing?

[tracilicious]

i think the real victim here would have been the person who bought it. granted, they most likely would have known that this wasn't legal, but there is an off chance they wouldn't have. then someone decides to take their family to d-land and then dad can't get in and they all suffer the embarrasment of looking like they are cheating.

oh those poor people who aren't able to cheat other people now because their auction was shut down! :rolleyes:

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Originally posted by hazlnut
Man, do you know how to twist what people say around. You're not a lawyer, by any chance?Nope.


I never said it was right. My first post in this thread begins with, it's wrong. I also never said this was about an getting caught or not getting caught. I mean, where did you get that--because I never said that.Ok, you're right, you did not say that in this thread. I'll concede it.


I very clearly said that, to me, IMHO, as I see it, this is one of those situations where one might turn a blind eye, mainly because we don't know the whole story. Did you bother to read that before you, again, started putting words in my mouth.Here's what I keep thinking - you NEVER know the full story. Am I to assume I don't know the full story any time I see anything immoral happening? Any time someone slips something into their pocket at a convenience store, I should turn a blind eye because he might be down on his luck? This completely cripples anyone who might try to do the right thing and stop others from doing the wrong things. To me this sounds like the people who don't report the bloody-murder-screaming coming from next door because it's "none of their business", and then a child/wife/husband turns up dead.


And, by the way, exactly how are these people stealing anything from anybody? Can any of the do-gooders address that?I paid lots of cash for my pass. The pass is non-transferrable. You cannot resell it, like it's a used car or something. EVERYONE must pay full price for a pass. If you do not, you are stealing from Disney. Both the person selling and the person buying are cheating Disney from profit. The person selling is making money off of a Disney product that is not theirs to sell. If the people who buy the auction want to go to Disneyland, they must pay like everyone else. This is the money that is being stolen.

It's like buying Levi's in the US and selling them for cheap in China.


No, being down on your luck doesn't give the person the right to steal, but if an immigrant maid stole some loose change off the desk in my hotel room, would I make a federal case out of it? Call the resort police on her? Stop thief!!If it was MY change, and I PERSONALLY knew her story, I would not have a problem with it. If Disney wants to turn a blind eye, that's fine too. But as this is not my property I'm talking about (it's Disney's) I have no right to say that someone else has a right to take it. Hey, I think my friend that's down on their luck should come take YOUR property without your knowledge or consent - whaddaya think?


CP, you are welcome in my home anytime, especailly if you're down on your luck. Please don't get me wrong - if you or any other padder really needed a hand, I'd be there to help you out. But that doesn't mean you can take my stuff without my knowledge. That's not charity, that's stealing.

[Kevy Baby]

Originally posted by hazlnut
And, by the way, exactly how are these people stealing anything from anybody? Can any of the do-gooders address that?
Well, I tried to find the T&Cs of AP usage, but no luck (I know it has to be there somewhere!). However, allow me to quote verbiage printed on my actual pass; "This NONTRANSFERABLE Passport is property of Disneyland Resort. It provides the individual whose name and picture appear herein with pre-specified, revocable priveledges..." So it states right on the Passport that you don't own it (if you don't own something, you do not have a legal right to sell it), it just grants THAT SPECIFIC PERSON the right to enter the park. TECHNICALLY, I guess it may not be stealing, (maybe its fraud or larceny - I don't know, I'm not a lawyer), but only if you want to split hairs. No, they are not "stealing" directly from me, but what they are doing does AFFECT me. Heck, if I were a stockholder, then I would even be able to say they WERE stealing from me!


Originally posted by hazlnut
I very clearly said that, to me, IMHO, as I see it, this is one of those situations where one might turn a blind eye, mainly because we don't know the whole story. Several statements have been made to counter this argument: A) the person says right in their OWN DECRIPTION: "...would like another family to enjoy our good fortune." B) (Quote from RickW: "The last item they successfully purchased on ebay was a $71.00 baseball bat." C) (Quote from Mad4Mky: Besides...down on their luck?? How in the heck did they afford PAP's in the first place?"

Sorry, you're arguments hold no water.

[Kevy Baby]

Originally posted by hazlnut
I am more concerned about poverty. A good portion of all shoplifting and many crimes, petty and otherwise, are symptoms of bigger problems. In response to my comment: "Then you wouldn't really care that petty shoplifting doesn't affect you even though it is a multi-billion dollar problem that causes you to pay 5-20% (depending on which expert you listen to) more for most everything you purchase? That to me IS a negative impact."

You're changing the subject.

[Disneyphile]

Originally posted by hazlnut
W-W-Whuuuu-at?? Huh? Disney? How?
Simple reason:

The person who purchases the pass would have had to pay full price admission, or spent $200 on a pass of their own. Same thing as "theater hopping". ;)

Another obvious victim would be the buyer (although I do question why someone would willingly buy something they know is not legit), for reasons which have been previously addressed by other folks ("do-gooders") in this thread. To reiterate: the buyer might give these "desperate" folks $50 to only be turned away at the gate for an invalid pass.

A lot of people make a lot of money from this kind of "practice". It's blatant ticket-scalping, whether it be for a theme park or show. Ticket-scalpers rob (steal from) people of their chances to see a show, or cause price increases for consumers from lost revenues (just like in this AP situation).

If more people adhered to this AP-selling practice, the rest of us would be stuck paying a LOT more for our AP's. $225 is quite enough for me, thank you. I'm glad this person was caught.

[Kevy Baby]

From Disneyphile's signature:
"You talk so good. You must be educated!" - Nice flea market vendor in rural Florida. Okay WAY off topic, but that is just SO scary!

[Kevy Baby]

Originally posted by hazlnut
I still can't see how. If you buy something at a garage sale (which essentailly ebay is, a giant garage sale) is it stealing? The next time I go by your house I will pick up a few things to sell on eBay or at a garage sale since selling them this way is not stealing.

[hazlnut]

Originally posted by Kevy Baby
Sorry, you're arguments hold no water.

Hold it, son. Can't do that. What you did right there.

You said:


Originally posted by Kevy Baby
TECHNICALLY, I guess it may not be stealing, (maybe its fraud or larceny - I don't know, I'm not a lawyer), but only if you want to split hairs.

Paraphrasing: "I guess you're sorta, kinda right, it's not really stealing because I don't know really know what I'm talking about."

Don't want to split hairs either, but that sounds a tad leaky to me. Sorry.

Also, if you master detectives think that an auction description and recent purchase tell us anything about the individual... I don't know, can't think of anything funny to say:D

besides, the wife is calling me to dinner--later. What say we agree to disagree. I don't see the big deal (and I am a stockholder) and most you feel it was wrong and should be reported to Disney. Oh well--whatta ya gonna do?

[Kevy Baby]

Here's what I was trying to say:

The technical legal term may or may not be stealing - it may be fraud or larceny or some other charge - but I, as a reasonable human being, feel reasonably confident that the act of selling the AP is a crime.

If that is not a solid enough answer, I will look up the appropriate legal definitions (actually, no I won't).

[hazlnut]

Originally posted by Kevy Baby
The next time I go by your house I will pick up a few things to sell on eBay or at a garage sale since selling them this way is not stealing.

I'm not sure I follow your logic. These people were selling something they bought--not something they found or stole.

And good luck getting anything you ripped off my house to sell on ebay.

[hazlnut]

Originally posted by Kevy Baby
If that is not a solid enough answer, I will look up the appropriate legal definitions (actually, no I won't).
The seller is doing nothing illegal. Breach of contract would even be a big stretch in small claims court.

But--the buyer--since the AP, once transfered, is then invalid, once he uses it, it's tresspassing--at best.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally posted by hazlnut
The seller is doing nothing illegal. It's illegal. Period, end of story. Read the back of an AP. "Non-transferable." Anyone who buys an AP signs their name on an agreement that says they will not transfer it, sell it, or in any other way allow someone entry to the park using your AP. That is a legal contract. Breaching it is illegal. I'm not sure where the confusion is.

[Morrigoon]

Disney budgets assuming that each pass will be used, on average, a certain number of times, and that that passholder will, on average, spend a certain amount of money during the time they own that pass.

When people who are done with their pass share it, they are messing with the averages. That pass (and any other passes in the system being shared), is now getting used twice as much (on average, remember) than was budgeted for. That means the park is getting twice as much wear and tear for the same $225. In other words, Disney IS the victim.

No, it doesn't seem like a lot of money - until you project that over how many other people could be doing this, and how many more would if this became accepted practice.

THAT is why your pass is non-transferable.

THink about it, if you pass was transferable, you could get yourself in, pass it back through the fence, and one by one get your entire family in. But each of those people should have been paid for, either by AP or single day ticket. If someone buys your AP who would not normally buy an AP, the company is, in a sense, losing $47 for every person who uses your AP. I'd be pretty upset if someone stole $50 from MY business, and you can be darn sure that if I saw someone stealing $50, I'd report it. It's not about butting into other people's business, it's about doing the right thing, which is not necessarily the nice thing.

[Mark Goldhaber]

And then think about the wonderful upbringing a buyer would be providing to their child. "We got a great deal on a pass that we're not supposed to have, Timmy, so if anybody asks you what your name is, you tell them that it's Johnny, OK?"

[Lost Boy]

Went to take a look. Bidding has been closed on this item "due to an error in the listing". Yea, right. Non Tranferable Pass was left out. I bet Disney made them close it down pronto. :D

[Nephythys]

I applaud those who stand up for what is right and honest. Far too many people don't these days, and often try to use some excuse, like being down on their luck.

Let me tell you something - I am VERY down right now, more than anyone here knows, but I would not consider doing something 'illegal" or even unethical to get out of my situation. I will perservere and work through it.

Morals and ethics should not be swayed so easily by outside influences. If the core of your being is honest in it's dealings- then you should know this was wrong.

I am glad the auction was stopped for whatever reason. It means they did not get away with it, and the person who would have bought it and used it with a great deal of nervousness at the thought of being caught, or might not have been able to use it at all, still has their money!

I don't think anyone is advocating spending their day reporting e-bay auctions that tick them off.

Oh, and comparing some strangers selling an AP to Jesus is ridiculous. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[hazlnut]

Like I think I stated in my first post on this thread and to quote a man much wiser than myself, CHRIS ROCK:

"I ain't saying it's right... But I understand."

[hazlnut]

Originally posted by Ghoulish Delight
It's illegal. Period, end of story. Read the back of an AP. "Non-transferable." Anyone who buys an AP signs their name on an agreement that says they will not transfer it, sell it, or in any other way allow someone entry to the park using your AP. That is a legal contract. Breaching it is illegal. I'm not sure where the confusion is.

The confusion is on your part. The SELLER is in no way violating any CRIMINAL statute in the state of California.

Breach of contract is a civil matter.

Non-transderable mean the AP becomes invalid if sold to or used by another person. Therefore, the buyer would be guilty, but not likely prosecuted of, tresspassing.

Are we clear?

[disneylandia]

Kevin, I was interested to read what Disneyland Loss Prevention told you about how they pursue this type of thing, but I do question this:

These CMs bid on the items and do their best to win. Once they win, they move in for the kill. Well, OK, not a kill, but more like the police.
This seller ended the auction, which means Disney still has no idea who it was. Had the auction continued, Disney might have won it, and thus brought the seller to justice. Moral of the story? Disney is on it. We do more harm than good when we publicize this
I'm sure Disney could find out who the seller is. They're already affiliated with ebay. I gotta think they have some power of persuasion with ebay on a clearly fraudulent auction.

Also, there are sellers on ebay who sell clearly unauthorized pieces of Disneyana, such as reproductions of Haunted Mansion gate plaques, Pirates dedication plaques, Haunted Mansion lenticulars obtained from the manufacturing factory before framing (i.e. "proofs), in fact tons of Mansion items. They're still on ebay! Years ago a member of my NFFC Chapter mentioned notifying Disney about some of these people. And yes, they're still at it. So Disney does at times turn a blind eye. I don't know what their criteria is to pursue action.

I have seen plenty of questionable Disney auctions on ebay, and wondered if they were going to get involved. I've never turned anyone in before though. And I can't say I won't do it again. I don't spend my time looking for trouble, but when I saw this it made my blood boil.

[hazlnut]

Originally posted by disneylandia
Disney does at times turn a blind eye. I don't know what their criteria is to pursue action.

I have seen plenty of questionable Disney auctions on ebay, and wondered if they were going to get involved.

Disney has no legal standing in the area of private auctions with one exception.

The cases where a CM has taken a costume off property. This is stolen property and to sell it or knowingly buy it constitutes an overt act and Disney could file a complaint with the Aneheim P.D. or the Orange County Sheriff.

The manufacture and sale of fake Disney merchandise falls under copyright law.

[DisneyFan25863]

Originally posted by hazlnut
Disney has no legal standing in the area of private auctions with one exception.

The cases where a CM has taken a costume off property. This is stolen property and to sell it or knowingly buy it constitutes an overt act and Disney could file a complaint with the Aneheim P.D. or the Orange County Sheriff.

The manufacture and sale of fake Disney merchandise falls under copyright law.


But what if that CM needed to make a nice Christmas for his kid?

[hazlnut]

Originally posted by DisneyFan25863
But what if that CM needed to make a nice Christmas for his kid? :confused: :p

[DisneyFan25863]

Originally posted by hazlnut
:confused: :p



Originally posted by hazlnut
Sorry, but I have to play devil's advocate.

Sure, it is illegal. But, with so many people out of work, on strike, etc., families can find themselves against the wall this time of year.

If someone wants to make a few bucks to give their kids a better holiday or pay some bills--none of us know what the story is here, they may really need the money, what does it hurt to turn a blind eye on this one?

To all of you zealously playing cop, I hope you've been totally honest in all your personal and professional affairs this year.

Is there really no room at the inn?

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Nicely done, DisneyFan.

Hey hazlnut, I guess my actual, lengthy response to your questions doesn't get an answer, eh?

I'm going to keep responding though.


The confusion is on your part. The SELLER is in no way violating any CRIMINAL statute in the state of California.

Breach of contract is a civil matter.

Non-transderable mean the AP becomes invalid if sold to or used by another person. Therefore, the buyer would be guilty, but not likely prosecuted of, tresspassing.

Are we clear?Are you clear on the fact that you are advocating violating civil rights? Is it moral to do such a thing? It's ok to breach contracts? Seriously, how can I trust someone that advocates this as being ok?

Are you clear on the fact that you are advocating tresspassing? Or how about that you are advocating someone getting a Disney day without paying money to Disney? Two for the price of 1.5, the .5 not even going to Disney? Advocating a person making money off of something they have no right to sell (oh, but only in a CIVIL way, of course, since there's no possible jail time involved, it's ok to step on other's ownership rights).