Enforcing FastPass return times?

[iceman559]

excuse me iceman but to describe what i said as asinine once again proves my point. if you are hoarding fastpasses you are the problem. i have been going to DLR for decades. i have never never spent 10 hours in line. even on july 4th. The point i was making is that you abslutley do not need FP to have a good disneyday.

I do not deny any of the points you made (other than the first sentence). As I've made clear, true HOARDING is potentially an issue. But also, I'd like to see any evidence that supports it other than saying "lines go up when they used to go down". Personally, I rarely use FPs super late at night, but when I was younger, I NEVER went to the park after 6 or 7pm. I was always back at my hotel by that now. Now, I enjoy going at night. So, there's one more person in STANDBY lines at night just because I realized it's pretty cool at night on Matterhorn, Thunder, Splash, etc. Who's to say THAT's not the reason that lines have become longer? I'm sure if you look at attendance, attendance is up historically as well. Just saying "oh, lines are long at night and they weren't before, so it must be people hoarding FPs" is premature. If there's evidence to support it (such as the ratio of FP to standby increasing ten fold or something late at night), then great. Otherwise, I don't think it's right for ANYONE to jump to conclusions about how bad the FP "problem" supposedly is. And I don't deny that you can have a great day without FP. Never did and never will. There have been days that I just go to the park and wander most of the day not riding anything (usually when I get a free day on a ticket from a promotion) and enjoy the day.

The point I called asinine was your statement that "if one equates number of rides against ticket value what a tiresome trip." I don't know a single person that would be willing to pay $70+ to just walk around, great theming or not. When I go, I get a minimum 3-day ticket usually, so I pay upwards of $2,000 when my family and I go (including hotel and gas - but not merchandise, park food prices, etc.). To say that I should consider it a good value to spend $2,000 to stand in line the majority of the day or for the right to pay Disney's exorbitant food and drink prices (and even merchandise), that's asinine. Sure, it's WORTH it to me, but that doesn't mean that I should automatically consider it a good value. When I go on light crowd days, I can easily get in 15-20+ rides per day while also getting in souvenir shopping and eating. To me, that's a pretty damn good value. Should I consider it equally good value if it's so incredibly busy that I'm having to push my way through the crowds only to stand in two hour lines for a 3 minute ride? I don't think so. I agree that it's still fun to go, but it doesn't mean I'm going to say it's a great value.

I'm not trying to argue whether or not it's worth it to go. obviously it is otherwise I wouldn't do whatever I could to go at least once a year, have my cube at work decked out in nothing by DLR/WDW stuff while wearing a DLR jacket, having a D23 membership card in my wallet and have enough Disney merchandise and memorabilia that an entire room in my house is dedicated to nothing but Disney. I love Disney, and I have a great time almost every single time I go (the only time I can think of that I didn't was 2003, literally RIGHT after Space Mountain was closed for the 50th rebuild and practically every other E-ticket attraction broke down once an hour).


Your analogy doesn't work because paying the admission price means that the theatre promises to show me a full movie. If they show me less than a full movie, then they haven't fulfilled what they promised in the admission price they charged me.

That's a valid point. So instead let's scale it and say you have to sit through five hours of previews before a 1.5 hour movie. Or that you pay to go to go to a playoff hockey game and your team gets blown out 10-0 compared to a game that goes to six overtimes and ends in a 1-0 score compared to a game where your team blows the other team out 10-0. Different people will say the different games are valued differently.

Or a baseball game that only makes it through the sixth inning (the minimum to be considered complete, I think, right?) before it gets called due to weather compared to a full nine-inning game. Which is the better value? You both paid the same price and one game ended 2/3 of the way through the other.

Or a tennis match between Rafael Nadal and Roger Federer compared to one between John Doe and Rafa or Roger. Most people will probably say the Rafa/Roger match will be better than the one featuring John Doe (assuming John isn't a break out superstar up-and-comer - for clarity). The tennis will likely be much better, more entertaining and probably going to go to a full five-sets. The other one is very highly unlikely to. Which is the better deal?

[cstephens]

Or a baseball game that only makes it through the sixth inning (the minimum to be considered complete, I think, right?) before it gets called due to weather compared to a full nine-inning game. Which is the better value? You both paid the same price and one game ended 2/3 of the way through the other.

Value is in the eye of the beholder. Just because one game took longer doesn't mean it was necessarily "better". I've sat through 9 inning games that have bored me to tears because nothing really happened, no good plays, not even a pitchers' duel. And I've been to other games where one fabulous inning was worth the entire price of the ticket.

I view Disneyland the same way. If someone is just interested in thrill rides, then Disneyland isn't really the place for them. They can go on all the rides available at the park, but the person will still be disappointed because there are only a few that would satisfy a thrill-seeker. There are some that are ONLY interested in rides, so having Fantasmic, parades and fireworks available means nothing to them, whereas another person will be severely disappointed if they don't run Fantasmic or the fireworks when they're there.

And then there are those who truly don't think the rides are the be-all, end-all of the Disneyland experience. I have friends who for various reasons don't go on that many rides when they visit the park. They're not AP holders, and they visit maybe once a year, on a multi-day ticket. And they have an amazing time at Disneyland, enjoying the sites and sounds and the rides that they are able to go on.

Which one of these scenarios is getting the "better value"? It depends on whether their experience satisfies what they were looking for. But I think it's a little ridiculous to just say that the more rides someone goes on, the better value they get. That's not true for everyone.

[Tink Lover]

The talk about "late night lines when there didn't used to be" doesn't address the recent influx of AP holders (majority local) using DL as their nighttime entertainment. I've heard many accounts were evenings brought crowds not seen during the day. While I don't deny the end of the day FP usage being part of the problem, you can't deny that crowd dynamics arent a contributing factor to longer evening lines.

Very good point.


... So, there's one more person in STANDBY lines at night just because I realized it's pretty cool at night on Matterhorn, Thunder, Splash, etc. Who's to say THAT's not the reason that lines have become longer? I'm sure if you look at attendance, attendance is up historically as well. Just saying "oh, lines are long at night and they weren't before, so it must be people hoarding FPs" is premature. If there's evidence to support it (such as the ratio of FP to standby increasing ten fold or something late at night), then great. Otherwise, I don't think it's right for ANYONE to jump to conclusions about how bad the FP "problem" supposedly is.


Agreed.

Ironically, AP holders who come at night and notice long standby lines that were never there before may themselves actually be the main cause of the problem. And if that is true, "changing" the policy re FP's may not have the degree of impact on standby lines that Disney (and AP holders) may be hoping for.

[iceman559]

Ironically, AP holders who come at night and notice long standby lines that were never there before may themselves actually be the main cause of the problem. And if that is true, "changing" the policy re FP's may not have the degree of impact on standby lines that Disney (and AP holders) may be hoping for.

Very true.


And just to point out, attendance has risen at Disneyland (the park itself - DCA excluded) fairly consistently over the decade after FP was introduced. In 1999, attendance was 13.5 million, increased to 13.9 million in 2000. Attendance dropped off in 2001, 2002, and 2003 (likely due to 9/11 obviously) but then went back up to 13.3 million in 2004 and has risen almost every year (2008 - the height of the recession - was the only drop and it dropped by .2 million [200,000]) to 15.9 in 2009. That's an 18% increase in the number of visitors since FP was introduced. Who's to say THAT isn't responsible for increased wait times? If you factor in DCA, it went from 13.5 million (1999) to 22 million (a 63% jump).

Also, the first 100 million visitors took 16 years to go through the gates. The next 100 million took only ten. The next 100 million, only eight. The 400 millionth passed through another eight years later, and the 500 millionth just seven years later. By my math, the 600 millionth visitor should have passed through in 2010, just six years later. And at the rate attendance is increasing, the 700th millionth will likely be in 2015 (five years later). Higher attendance = bigger crowds = longer lines. Show me evidence that it's the FPs causing all of the problems and not the increased attedance.

[elke]

Sorry to interrupt the discussion for a second - I will say I would also be curious to see though what the evidence is that FP "post-users" really do or don't cause longer lines - but here is my selfish question:
We happen to be in the parks March 4,5,6, so just before the potential policy switch. Can I trust that CMs will not start enforcing this earlier? Or should I assume that some eager CMs may be enforcing this policy earlier than March 7? It would affect how I plan out our visit, especially since this is the first time that we are going on a long day (sunday) where I was indeed planning to go to the park early, do Fantasyland, collect some FP (we usually don't really need that many because we end up doing single rider more because of our young kids), go back to the Hojo when it gets too crowded, have kids play in pool and hopefully nap or rest/watch TV in the room, and then head back in the evening to take in a few more rides, use those earlier FP, but mainly to catch the fireworks and the 2nd Fantasmic show. I have never before left the park and returned, and I was thinking the FP would be especially handy for this.
What do you think?
thanks,
elke

[iceman559]

Sorry to interrupt the discussion for a second - I will say I would also be curious to see though what the evidence is that FP "post-users" really do or don't cause longer lines - but here is my selfish question:
We happen to be in the parks March 4,5,6, so just before the potential policy switch. Can I trust that CMs will not start enforcing this earlier? Or should I assume that some eager CMs may be enforcing this policy earlier than March 7? It would affect how I plan out our visit, especially since this is the first time that we are going on a long day (sunday) where I was indeed planning to go to the park early, do Fantasyland, collect some FP (we usually don't really need that many because we end up doing single rider more because of our young kids), go back to the Hojo when it gets too crowded, have kids play in pool and hopefully nap or rest/watch TV in the room, and then head back in the evening to take in a few more rides, use those earlier FP, but mainly to catch the fireworks and the 2nd Fantasmic show. I have never before left the park and returned, and I was thinking the FP would be especially handy for this.
What do you think?
thanks,
elke


Well, I'd say expect it to be enforced. Officially, that has always been Disney's policy. Just because the vast majority (I've only had one instance contrary) do NOT enforce it currently doesn't mean that some CM can't. Currently, the practice is indeed to allow them at all times, but the policy is still that they must be used in the windows. I'd say it's unlikely that a CM will be enforcing it early considering they haven't been doing it for the past decade (and possibly even after the official enforcement order), but I would say to PLAN for it to be enforced just in case.

[Drince88]

elke, I would recommend just asking a CM near the first fastpasses you get each day if they are enforcing the 'end time' on the fastpass. Sometimes it's a little harder to find a CM near the FP machines at DL than at WDW, but usually there's someone not TOO far away.

[Malcon10t]

This weekend is going to be a busy holiday weekend. If they were going to start enforcing it early, I expect it would be this weekend. I will be there, and do plan to check on this. Will post back over the weekend.

[iceman559]

You know, another thing I just thought of. With the enforcement of this policy, I hope the CMs that actually TAKE the tickets will be more conscious of checking them. As it is, there's nothing stopping me from faking out that CM. Especially at Space, once we pass the CM checking FP tickets at the start of the line, my group usually batches up our tickets and then hands them to the CM at the console at the entrance to the actual building (where the two lines merge) and that CM almost always just takes the whole group and lets us right in. What would stop me from showing the CM at the entrance four valid FPs and then swapping out the bottom three for expired ones when we hand them to the CM at the console? I've always thought about trying this with FPs for a different attraction just to see if it'd work, but alas, I never got the courage!

[currence]

I believe the FPs are color coded for each attraction, and that color changes periodically (daily?) so it would be more obvious if you are using a FP from a different day or from a different attraction.

[houseofmouse]

yes they are color coded but the colors do not change daily. We have several from attractions from different days, (my DD keeps the unused ones) and they are the same color.

[LacyBelle]

Sorry to interrupt the discussion for a second - I will say I would also be curious to see though what the evidence is that FP "post-users" really do or don't cause longer lines - but here is my selfish question:
We happen to be in the parks March 4,5,6, so just before the potential policy switch. Can I trust that CMs will not start enforcing this earlier? Or should I assume that some eager CMs may be enforcing this policy earlier than March 7? It would affect how I plan out our visit, especially since this is the first time that we are going on a long day (sunday) where I was indeed planning to go to the park early, do Fantasyland, collect some FP (we usually don't really need that many because we end up doing single rider more because of our young kids), go back to the Hojo when it gets too crowded, have kids play in pool and hopefully nap or rest/watch TV in the room, and then head back in the evening to take in a few more rides, use those earlier FP, but mainly to catch the fireworks and the 2nd Fantasmic show. I have never before left the park and returned, and I was thinking the FP would be especially handy for this.
What do you think?
thanks,
elke

Has this change been announced for DLR yet? The earlier reports I read were for the process to begin on March 7th at WDW only (I may have missed a follow-up article, though). If it's still the case that only WDW is making the change in March, and elke will be visiting DLR, there should not be an issue during that visit. How it's rolled out in practice (and when DLR will be affected) will be interesting to watch.

[3Princesses1Prince]

Has this change been announced for DLR yet? The earlier reports I read were for the process to begin on March 7th at WDW only (I may have missed a follow-up article, though). If it's still the case that only WDW is making the change in March, and elke will be visiting DLR, there should not be an issue during that visit. How it's rolled out in practice (and when DLR will be affected) will be interesting to watch.

There have been DLR CMs that have said they are retRaining to enforce the return times too starting the same day.

[Teddi]

There have been DLR CMs that have said they are retRaining to enforce the return times too starting the same day.

And yet, while this change was made extremely official by WDW (it's as official as it gets when they post it on the internal website)... I can verify there is nothing official about DLR yet. I think AVP's sources are probably right. I highly doubt TDA has any desire to *really* change what their guests (esp. APs and frequent fliers) have come to expect. Probably a case of "put the right face on" so TDO execs nod in approval.

Also @ Dan. Sorry, but I've seen and heard many times CMs tell, ask or otherwise encourages FP holders to come back later. Like when the FP line is "too long" for it's queue and starts creating space problems in front of the entrance, like when a ride has just reopened, or when it is just gone down, or when a ride is closed and FP holder approach and ask questions. So, I just continue to disagree with the large idea that anyone who takes advantage of Disney's policy de facto, is a rule breaker.

[iceman559]

I think AVP's sources are probably right. I highly doubt TDA has any desire to *really* change what their guests (esp. APs and frequent fliers) have come to expect. Probably a case of "put the right face on" so TDO execs nod in approval.

I have a feeling the idea that they will enforce it for some time due to Cars Land opening is probably accurate. I'm sure they'll definitely need to enforce the windows there and they can't enforce it on that one attraction and none of the others, as it'd be too confusing to have tickets listing identical restrictions but enforced differently at the different rides. So, either they will have to change the machines where they wouldn't be enforcing it to get rid of the window end time, or just enforce the policy resort wide. Now, I could be wrong, and that's assuming that Radiator Springs even uses FP when it first opens (I'd be surprised if it didn't, but who knows!).

[3Princesses1Prince]

I agree that the enforcement will be in effect for awhile because of carsland. My guess is that until after spring break or summer 2013 at least.

[LLevy]

I find it interesting when theories are shown in practice. It is very well established in the business and psychology world, that while giving some new sort of "bonus" to people is not necessarily a motivator, that taking one, once given, away.. is almost ALWAYS a demotivator. Everyone almost always has a problem with having something taken away from them, even if it was something they didn't use or value. Disney is just going to have to deal with the problem that people have with having this "bonus" taken away.

LL

[LLevy]

has there been any more talk about the idea of charging for a ticket or fast pass so that you can get on the best rides? could they be thinking of issuing some kind of ticket book, maybe with just a few tickets for the more popular rides, and a lot of tickets for the less popular rides, to encourage people to go on the less popular ones? maybe they could call the popular rides something like .. oh, maybe "E-Ticket" rides....

[iceman559]

has there been any more talk about the idea of charging for a ticket or fast pass so that you can get on the best rides? could they be thinking of issuing some kind of ticket book, maybe with just a few tickets for the more popular rides, and a lot of tickets for the less popular rides, to encourage people to go on the less popular ones? maybe they could call the popular rides something like .. oh, maybe "E-Ticket" rides....

The problem with that is the crowds that go to Disneyland now. You pay $70 for one day at one park. If you go during summer months, you likely would only get 8-12 rides in (I think). As such, Disney would essentially be charging $5.83 per attraction on average to make the same money (or increase other park prices - such as food, merchandise, etc.). The ticket books may have worked back in the day, but as crowds increase, ticket books get farther and farther from a viable option. Of course, it doesn't help that since there are so many "E-ticket" attractions these days, it'll result in EXTREMELY negative PR for Disney to re-institute ticket books and limit the number of times people can ride the popular attractions.

Enforcing and/or getting rid of FP is one thing, but going back to ticket books would be the kiss of death for Disney, at least in my opinion.

[kidrericha]

This weekend is going to be a busy holiday weekend. If they were going to start enforcing it early, I expect it would be this weekend. I will be there, and do plan to check on this. Will post back over the weekend.

What's the holiday?

[iceman559]

What's the holiday?

Well, this is the weekend that's leading into their big "One More Disney Day" or whatever they are calling it promotion where the park is open 24-hours straight on leap day. I wouldn't be surprised if it is indeed pretty busy all weekend into and through Tuesday this week.

[danyoung]

So, I just continue to disagree with the large idea that anyone who takes advantage of Disney's policy de facto, is a rule breaker.

Believe it or not, I completely agree with you, Teddi. Let me try to put it another way. Disney puts out the FP with the idea that you're going to come back at a specific time to ride the ride. Then they proceed to tell everyone that the end time really doesn't matter, and you can come back whenever you want. What this means to most people is that if you miss your window and are a little late, it doesn't matter, cuz the CMs are instructed to still let you in. Where I think the problem begins is those who get as many FPs as they can early in the day, with full knowledge that they aren't going to use them till the evening. And even though Disney seems to actively be encouraging this policy, it's still using FPs in a way that the system wasn't designed to be used. That's where I keep using the word "abuse". No one is really doing anything wrong, as Disney tells everyone to come back pretty much whenever they want to. But it's still abuse of the system in the dictionary sense - "wrong or improper use".

[iceman559]

Believe it or not, I completely agree with you, Teddi. Let me try to put it another way. Disney puts out the FP with the idea that you're going to come back at a specific time to ride the ride. Then they proceed to tell everyone that the end time really doesn't matter, and you can come back whenever you want. What this means to most people is that if you miss your window and are a little late, it doesn't matter, cuz the CMs are instructed to still let you in. Where I think the problem begins is those who get as many FPs as they can early in the day, with full knowledge that they aren't going to use them till the evening. And even though Disney seems to actively be encouraging this policy, it's still using FPs in a way that the system wasn't designed to be used. That's where I keep using the word "abuse". No one is really doing anything wrong, as Disney tells everyone to come back pretty much whenever they want to. But it's still abuse of the system in the dictionary sense - "wrong or improper use".

I think the point that everyone can agree on is that people who intentionally grab as many fast passes as they can planning to not use them until late at night to avoid standby lines can be considered "abusers". Agreed?

[Tinkermommy]

...Then they proceed to tell everyone that the end time really doesn't matter, and you can come back whenever you want. ... Disney tells everyone to come back pretty much whenever they want to.

But are they really telling everyone and actively encouraging it? The ONLY place I've ever heard that you could use FPs outside the window is here. When I've given away my unused FPs and mentioned that you could use them outside the window, I've never gotten a response other than suspicion that I'm wrong. I'm not trying to argue, I've just never heard a CM promoting or publicizing the use of a FP outside its window.

[iceman559]

But are they really telling everyone and actively encouraging it? The ONLY place I've ever heard that you could use FPs outside the window is here. When I've given away my unused FPs and mentioned that you could use them outside the window, I've never gotten a response other than suspicion that I'm wrong. I'm not trying to argue, I've just never heard a CM promoting or publicizing the use of a FP outside its window.

It's sort of a "don't ask, don't tell" type policy. They don't say "Hey you can use it whenever" to every guest that walks by, but if you ask a CM if you can come back late, they'll tell you yes. I don't know that I'd say they are ENCOURAGING it, but they are indeed actively allowing it and essentially making it the de facto policy in practice and by stating it when asked.