Originally posted by pullmyfinger.com
I guarantee you: EVERY raper, killer, alcholic was abused by their parent.

What!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

there have been studies that have proved this wrong many times... many many...... WHAT!?!?!?!?!?!:confused:

Originally posted by pullmyfinger.com
Instead of Adrienne defending the position I stated here concerning children being frightened at movies, she instead demonstrates that she has a shallow position by personally attacking the poster, which is myself. This is, in most cases, a sign of a person who does not have any true analytical thinking capacities. She is more inclined to present HER position and say, that is that!

Sounds very ultra-conservative personality type to me.

Whether or not IT TOUGH TO BE A BUG is scary for children is EXTREMELY subjective. In most cases, yes, the child will react frightened, but, a caring parent can talk it out with the child and make him feel better about the situation.

Ms Krock, I have Majored in mass communications and Psychology and I challenge to show ONE study where "scariness, suspense, murders" etc has had any negative impact on a child or teen-agers. Sorry, you will find that any testing done in realtion to this will show NO concrete evidence either way.

Though, there are many studies that do show that children will be impacted by lack of communication from parent to child, that, if children are explained at an early age the difference between fantasy and reality, that, in nearly 93% of of the case studies, the children will come out unscathed and will have a stronger more nuturing realtionship with there parent.

I do beleive there are many parents out there who have been brought up in a restrictive, dis-communitive environment, where parents delay the devolpment of a child becasue they do not expect the child ti be able to comprehend.

Here is the bottom line: How many children have become mentally deficient and affected for life when they saw the WOODSMAN approach Snow White with a knife in hand, ready to rip her heart out of her body? How many children have lived a sheltered life beacuse Bambi's mommy got shot? Yes, the child becomes affected if he/she sees this. SO DO WE!

With a little love, compassion and tenderness, the child, ANY CHILD, will be A-OK if he sees IT TOUGH TO BE A BUG or PETER PAN. If the child freaks and climbs into a hole for life, this child has deeper inssues not brought on by the films, but perhaps by bad parenting.

Please, look elsewhere than the media. Spanking has created more sheltered, mentally affected children than any Bambi meeting. THough many of you will say spanking is fine.

I guarantee you: EVERY raper, killer, alcholic was abused by their parent.

Incidentally, have 2 children that simply LOVE all things Disney and find most scary things funny, as I laugh at it with them, EMPHASIZING how phoney it is.

You should try it too!

Since everyone who posted in relation to pullmyfinger's "theories" has indicated that they think the theories are ridiculous, the fact that his response focuses on adriennek shows another agenda here.

Most things he says are, as most people with children can easily identify, horse excrement (hey, you try coming up with other words for that particular word, I've already used dung). I'm not going to again go through how absurd some of his points are, there appears to be no point.

I will note however, that he needs to keep better track of his children, note this comment from the "Parenting in the Parks" column where adriennek previously dealt with Richard's (pullmyfinger) "theories":

This led to a lively correspondence, during which Richard (who tells me he is a father of a two, four, and eight- year- old) suggested telling a child that "the big bug is simply pretending... he's just being funny."

In his response above, he notes that he has 2 children that love Disney. Either one child does not love Disney or something happened there.

anyway *veering BACK onto topic* the movie sounds great, and i have a lot of ties to the character, having auditioned to play him for the holiday season 2001 ('m still waiting for a response...) and having played the part in a few local productions, it's a great part and i hope the movie does it justice! sounds great!

Sorry, Bandboy--I need to veer off again for just a second. I was away when all this broke and since it is one of my pet peeves I need to make a teeny comment.
Anyone who has spent any time with kids knows that what they view through movies and tv will affect them for better or worse. Having taught preschool for many years I see it firsthand.

Children who see violence and frightening scenes become aggressive themselves, become desensitized to murder and the value of human life and become accepting of agressive behavior. Of course there are many other factors that contribute to a child becoming violent and aggressive, but these things do contribute--according to the American Pediatric Association among others. (Check out Google--the source of all things)

I'm not saying shut your children up in their room until they are 18 but my goodness--let children be innocent as long as possible. Don't expose them unnecessarily to intense and violent scenes. There is plenty of time as adults to become disillusioned.

I think I just repeated what everyone else said--but I just had to get this off my chest...ahhh.... I feel better now.

OK--Bandboy--I hope you get the Peter Pan part. Then I can say I know a celebrity!
Lisa

Originally posted by pullmyfinger.com
I guarantee you: EVERY raper, killer, alcholic was abused by their parent.

Why is it that some people feel like they have to make statements that sound impressive, even if they are so obviously untrue?

My uncle is an alcoholic. He was not abused in any way by his parents.

You know, for a communications major, you don't know much about spelling and grammar. "Dis-communitive"? Making up words doesn't help your case any.

The funny thing is, I'd have to say that I am less inclined to agree with Adrienne, but I wouldn't do so with the arrogance that you have shown. Parents should decide for themselves how their children are raised. It's one thing to say "I disagree" and another to say " I know what I'm talking about and you don't."

Heck, you yourself say that there is no concrete evidence either way....so why get all worked up about it?

What is it about certain posters (one other comes to mind) that decide to bring hostile feelings into an otherwise amicable board?:confused:

Originally posted by pullmyfinger.com
Whether or not IT TOUGH TO BE A BUG is scary for children is EXTREMELY subjective. In most cases, yes, the child will react frightened, but, a caring parent can talk it out with the child and make him feel better about the situation.

Yes, this is obviously true. And I believe this is what Adrienne and most of the parents here are advocating: know your own child.

Yes, if your child is too afraid to watch It's Tough to Be a Bug, you explain why they don't need to be afraid. But I fail to see how this then requires you to force them to watch it anyway.

Ms Krock, I have Majored in mass communications and Psychology and I challenge to show ONE study where "scariness, suspense, murders" etc has had any negative impact on a child or teen-agers. Sorry, you will find that any testing done in realtion to this will show NO concrete evidence either way.

Since you just ask for one study, and are so certain of your absolutes, here you go:

"Integrating Field and Laboratory Investigations of Televised Violence and Aggression" by Leonard D. Eron and L. Rowell Huesmann. Paper presented at the Annual Convention of the American Psychological Association (88th, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, September 1-5, 1980).

Abstract: "Longitudinal and intervention laboratory studies were conducted to investigate the effects of viewing televised violence on the aggressive behavior of elementary school children. In the longitudinal study 505 children were studied over a 3-year period. The measures used included peer nominated aggression, aggression anxiety and popularity, self-ratings of aggression, sex role orientation, fantasy behavior, and various measures of television habits including frequency of viewing, violence of favorite programs, and identification with aggressive male and female television characters. Results indicated that all the correlations between television violence and aggression were significant. A subsample of 132 children classified as high violence viewers were selected for intervention efforts. Half of this group were given a series of interventions. The interventions were designed to convince the children that TV violence is unrealistic and should not be imitated. The other half of the subsample formed a control group which was shown non-violent excerpts followed by discussion. In a later intervention, subjects were asked to write essays on why TV violence is unrealistic and why viewing too much of it is bad. Four months following intervention, measures indicated that aggression scores for the experimental intervention group were lower than for those of the placebo group. Additionally, no significant relation was found between viewing television violence and aggression in the experimental group, though a positive relation between these two variables existed for the placebo group. Extent of identification with TV characters (ability to discriminate between reality and fantasy) was demonstrated to be an important mediating variable in the relation between television and aggression. "

Bolding was mine. I have no comment on the validity of the study or the permanency of the effects, but you just asked for one study.

Though, there are many studies that do show that children will be impacted by lack of communication from parent to child, that, if children are explained at an early age the difference between fantasy and reality, that, in nearly 93% of of the case studies, the children will come out unscathed and will have a stronger more nuturing realtionship with there parent.

93%? My, that's a mighty specific number, can you share the source? Also, does not that imply that 7% of children are negatively impacted despite an aggressive explanation of the differences between fantasy and reality? Further, how does this get turned into forcing your child to watch something that he/she does not want to watch?

I do beleive there are many parents out there who have been brought up in a restrictive, dis-communitive environment, where parents delay the devolpment of a child becasue they do not expect the child to be able to comprehend.

Again, I doubt anybody disagrees that parents have to teach their children the difference between fantasy and reality. Though I ask again, how does this result in forcing children to watch something that scares them?

Here is the bottom line: How many children have become mentally deficient and affected for life when they saw the WOODSMAN approach Snow White with a knife in hand, ready to rip her heart out of her body? How many children have lived a sheltered life beacuse Bambi's mommy got shot? Yes, the child becomes affected if he/she sees this. SO DO WE!

I know this is repetitious, but I want to make sure my point gets across.

I doubt that anybody thinks that seeing Bambi's mother get shot will do long-term damage. But, again, how does this translate to forcing a child to watch something that will make the child unhappy in the short term?

----
I don't have any children. I don't want any children. But I do have a wife that is afraid of drop rides (Maliboomer type things); should I force her to ride them?

She knows the ride won't kill her. She knows there is near zero risk. She is an adult and has a perfect understanding of this. She still won't ride the ride.

Fear is not rational. Toddlers are not rational. Toddler fear is extremely irrational (I once knew a toddler who, for about two months, was afraid of trees; who knows why). Forcing someone through a frightening experience can be a very traumatic experience - in the short term if not the long term.

I don't see how forcing traumatic experiences on a child in the short term until they break through to the long term is preferable to talking to your child about their fears and just letting them adjust at their own pace.

I think I'll add my $.02 to the off-topic discussion. ;)

Let's assume for a moment that watching violence doesn't lead to violence...just for argument sake. I can speak from experience that ignoring your child's fear and telling them it's funny or it's fake does (in my experience) have a negative affect on them. I remember being very afraid of the Pirate ride when I was younger. I was afraid because of false memories I had from riding it at times before. Instead of somebody sitting down with me and talking about my fears, I was told, "Oh come on. It's fun! There's nothing to be afraid of." What did I feel? I felt like I was all alone and that nobody cared about me. Nobody understood what I was going through. They all just wanted to ride the ride with no concern for me. Feelings like that DO have a negative affect on children.

Did I learn from that experience? Well, almost. I still catch myself doing the same thing with my children once in a while. I'm getting better though. This thread has also taught me a lot about what I went through at a young age and what my children are currently going through.

You need to tell the truth to your children. If I'm taking my son to the doctor for a shot, I don't tell him it isn't going to hurt. If I did that then he wouldn't trust me the next time. I sit him down, tell him that the shot does hurt, but only for a minute. I'll be there the whole time and he can squeeze my hand when it hurts. When we go on rides that are scary we hold them close, close their eyes, and cover their ears. They feel that we are concerned for them and they trust us. You can't make the fear go away by telling them that it isn't scary. It just makes them feel shut out.

Anyway, I'm still looking forward to Peter Pan 2. :D

Folks, do remember that Ms. Krock began the personal attacks first by stating, and I quote,

" Obviously, he has no understanding of child development; some people actually believe that children are little adults. Sad. I've already wasted my time debating this issue with him. I actually enjoyed EandCDad's initial response to his comment. "

Who is she to comment that "obciously I have no understanding of child development" and that my response made her waste her time? I do beleive that a response like this demonstrates a person backed into a corner who has no qulaified answers to ligitmate questions and issues I have brought up. Instead of continuing the conversation, she merely offends people, then runs away!

Incidentally, one can find MANY, MANY, MANY case studies on the internet which demonstrate that TV/Film does not make a child violent, that lack of communication, love and (and is everyone listening?) parents that are inhibited will contribute to a child's dilquency.

Here's a study; ask for more and you will receive!

THIS IS A MINUTE ON THE FUTURE. A PROFILE OF TEACHING, RESEARCH, AND SERVICE AT CASE WESTERN RESERVE UNIVERSITY.

IF THERE'S A INCREASE IN VIOLENT ACTS BY CHILDREN, DON'T BLAME TELEVISION. THAT'S WHAT A CASE WESTERN RESERVE STUDY FOUND. MARK SINGER IS A PROFESSOR AT CASE WESTERN
RESERVE'S MANDEL SCHOOL OF APPLIED SOCIAL SCIENCES AND THE STUDY'S PRINCIPAL INVESTIGATOR. HE SAYS, TELEVISION VIEWING IS NOT NEARLY AS POWERFUL AS OTHER FACTORS IN PREDICTING CHILDREN'S VIOLENT BEHAVIOR. THE STUDY ASSESSED CHILDREN'S TELEVISION VIEWING HABITS BASED ON HOURS WATCHED PER DAY AND FAVORITE
PROGRAMS. IT ALSO DOCUMENTED CHILDREN'S OWN VIOLENT BEHAVIORS AND THEIR EXPOSURE TO VIOLENCE AS EITHER WITNESSES OR VICTIMS AT HOME, SCHOOL, AND IN THE
NEIGHBORHOOD. IT FOUND THAT INADEQUATE PARENTAL MONITORING AND EXPOSURE TO REAL-LIFE VIOLENCE CONTRIBUTE FAR MORE TO VIOLENT BEHAVIOR IN CHILDREN THAN
WATCHING TV.

THIS HAS BEEN A MINUTE ON THE FUTURE. A PROFILE OF TEACHING, RESEARCH, AND SERVICE AT CASE WESTERN RESERVE UNIVERSITY. I'M TOM SHROUT.

This is one of those issues people get really passionate about--and one of those issues people do not change their thinking about by reading a thread on a DL website.
No matter how many case studies we all can throw at each other our experience and personal beliefs will hold sway over our opinions.
Better to smile, nod, have a sense of humor about it and be gentle in our arguments. That goes for me most of all. If you find yourself getting red in the face and blood pressure skyrocketing as you read a thread, this is a good clue to Avoid it. No good will come of posting while enraged....

How about we meet back here in 20 years and take a look at all of our kids--and see for ourselves how things turned out.

Originally posted by pullmyfinger.com
Who is she to comment that "obciously I have no understanding of child development" and that my response made her waste her time? I do beleive that a response like this demonstrates a person backed into a corner who has no qulaified answers to ligitmate questions and issues I have brought up. Instead of continuing the conversation, she merely offends people, then runs away!

1- How is this behavior on your part any different than what you accuse me of doing? I don't really see a lot of point in responding to the same thing over and over again that you're directing to me. "What a Krock" isn't very original, it doesn't have a lot to do with child development or parenting, and I don't see how it helps contribute to a mature discourse of these issues. From where I'm sitting, I don't see a reason to give much attention to this behavior.

2- I didn't run away. I posted a link to my public response to you, and you haven't addressed any of my points, you just keep repeating yourself and complaining about me. Sometimes less is more. I've been reading as other people, besides me, contributed to the discussion.

3- I'm not the only one posting here. Alex made a lot of interesting points and directly asked you some questions that I'd like to see you address. So have other posters, including, most recently, Bill, who echoed many of the points in my column which you have avoided addressing.

Adrienne K
And yes, I'm quite a Krock :)

This thread has already strayed enough from the original subject that I have moved it to the Parenting in the Park column.

Should it stray more (away from _PARK_ stuff and more just into parenting stuff without the park) I'm liable to move it into the Lounge.

While we're at it, PullMyFinger, let's cool it with the personal invectives against Adrienne Krock (especially since it's a good way to violate our membership terms of agreement). I would think that as a reasonable adult you are capable of having a civilized conversation without the finger-pointing.

Thanks.

Originally posted by pullmyfinger.com
THIS IS A MINUTE ON THE FUTURE. A PROFILE OF TEACHING, RESEARCH, AND SERVICE AT CASE WESTERN RESERVE UNIVERSITY.This appears to be a transcript of a very short radio broadcast. Could you please post the actual citation of the study to which this radio story refers, along with a brief synopsis of the abstract? Thanks.

Fist of all, as i have mentioned many times, I am almost 21 and am single, with no kids. Even without much childcare experience I can tell you that forcing children to do something that could be tramatic for them is not a good thing. No matter how much you tell them its okay they will still be afraid.

Also...looking for facts on the internet is a risky business. Remember anyone could post anything about any topic and make up facts and you probably would have no clue. Just a thought.

This is, in most cases, a sign of a person who does not have any true analyitcal thinking capacities. SHe is more inclined to present HER position and say, that is that!

Excuse me...mr P. M. Finger...do you read any other threads. My guess is no because if you did you would find that AK is one of the most professional and informative posters/moderators on this board(with a vast capacity of true analyitical thinking).

Originally posted by pullmyfinger.com


Here's a study; ask for more and you will receive!



"Both boys and girls who preferred shows with lots of action and fighting -- the high-violence programs -- had significantly higher anger scores compared to other students," Singer says. "They also reported more aggression towards others."

That's another quote from pullmyfinger's favorite researcher Mark Singer. Of course, it seems to say the exact opposite of what pullmyfinger is claiming in his post. We aren't really getting anywhere with this, but let's recap a few facts.

1. Since pullmyfinger responded directly to adriennek again, even though numerous others who have posted also disputed his absurd "theory," it seems to indicate that he has an agenda unrelated to whether young children should be forced to watch scary movies and go on intense or scary theme park rides.

2. I'm not exactly sure why suddenly this discussion is focusing on if violent tv or movies cause violence in children. Of course, it does. However, we were discussing whether or not a child (in some cases, a very young child) can be "talked out" of their fear. Anyone who spends any time around children knows that a child who is afraid of video or movie can't be told, "it's ok, it's just pretend" and really understand what you mean. As the child grows and develops she will likely be more able to differentiate real from make-believe, and these types of rides and movies may become more appropriate.

3. Pullmyfinger seems to think that his detractors are implying that one trip on Snow White's Scary Adventure will scar a child for life. Not likely, but a viewing of "Halloween" will make them feel uncomfortable and apprehensive for quite a while, no matter what you tell them. Also, as I stated before, there are generally no long term effects from a hard slap in the face, but who wants one of those?

4. Alex is absolutely on target. Why force a kid who doesn't like certain scary rides or movies to go on them just to support your own crackpot theories? Not making the kids go on the rides or watch the movies will not make them a Fraidy Cat for life. I was afraid to go on roller coasters until I was about 15. I got over it because I was older, better able to understand what was happening, and had matured.

5. Bill Catherall is a smart, smart man.

6. I can't think of any more acceptable synonims for dung, so please don't tempt me.

Not a study...personal experience...
Let me prefice by saying my parents were loving and caring...they just didn't get it...
1. I was terrorized by certain movies untill I was seven years old.
I ran out of more theaters (literally OUT and down the street.) My personal terrors came from the Film Noir DARK crime and Killer dramas they liked. I was scared to death. Especially during scenes where there was a nightmare being depicted. (It's not real' didn't mean a hill of beans.)
When I was seven my Dad took me to a Dinosaur movie and I finally got it! It was entertainment! What fun! Scared me but in a fun way for the first time.

When I was FIVE my dopey Dad held me OVER the edge of the top of the Empire State Building to 'see all the little cars'
This was before a high fence was put there.
Two years ago I rode Supreme Scream and finally conqured that terror of heights...directly related to that incident on the Empire State Building. As a teen and adult I visited it many times...but NEVER coukld look over the edge...a thick rug was too high for me.
Point is for me anyway, I clearly remember being told as a tyke that the movie was just make believe...it was like jibberish because I could SEE and HEAR that it wasn't.
I have specific movies I remember and specific incidents clearly in mind.
To this end... once my daughter (10) and I wanted to see a monster movie/comedy "Tremors"...so my son who was about 7 wanted to go...about a quarter way in to it I noticed he was in tears and very tense...my daughter stayed and I took him home to mom (who he lived with) and then I returned to see the rest of the movie. He was terrified and I always felt if only my Dad had taken me home from some of those things.
My daughter was a trooper from the earliest age...he was not. That's the way it is and it is a must for the parents to be able to define this difference. Now he's big strong and tough as nails... but then he was a little boy who didn't yet understand how entertaining raging bloody monsters can be.
But the subject WAS Capt. Hook taking Wendy's daughter to Never Never Land...my daughter would have loved it!
Thanks
Doug

Originally posted by pullmyfinger.com
How many children have become mentally deficient and affected for life when they saw the WOODSMAN approach Snow White with a knife in hand, ready to rip her heart out of her body? How many children have lived a sheltered life beacuse Bambi's mommy got shot? Yes, the child becomes affected if he/she sees this. SO DO WE!

I remember very distinctly being dragged screaming from Bambi as a child because I was so badly frightened after the mother's death and the forest fire that I could not calm down. I was all of about three years old. It was a traumatic experience for me, and even now I can't watch films where the mother and child are separated. I nearly had a panic attack during the Whale scene in Fantasia 2000 where the little whale is trapped in the iceberg. I was terrified that he would die in there and never get back to his mother. I wept when Mufasa died in the Lion King and I nearly had a hysterical episode when I saw A.I. this year (which was all about a boy's search to be reunited with his mother). I'd hesitate to say that Bambi scarred me for life, but I think watching it as a child ignited some part of me that's sensitive to parent/child separation. I think if I had waited until I was a bit older to see it, I would have been able to deal with my feelings a bit more rationally. As it is, that gut instinct to scream and run out of the theater is still inside me.

For me, especially as a child, the line between "fantasy" and "reality" has always been rather blurry. I'm one of those who believes that "reality" is all based on your perception. If a child feels that something is real, then his/her reaction to it is warranted and valid. What's "fake" to one person may be very real to someone else. Senses that are very alive in one person may be dormant in another. For example, I believe in ghosts, because I've seen them and talked to them. Someone who's never had this experience might pooh-pooh it and say that it isn't real, but it's very real to me.

As others have mentioned, every child, indeed every person is different - we're all discrete individual people with differentiated perceptions of the world. Most of our perceptions are based on experience. I agree that a child is well-prepared for an environment such as, say, It's Tough to Be a Bug, will fare much better than one who enters unprepared, but if they're scared, it may be for reasons you don't understand. Dismissing the terrifying stimulus as funny or silly teaches children that their gut reactions are irrelevant and that they should bury them to conform to your expectations. This may make for a more pleasant experience for you, but probably won't resolve the underlying issues of fear that are involved.

Bravo if your children are brave souls who can laugh off danger. I certainly wasn't, and probably never will be. I avoided the Haunted Mansion like the plague until I understood how all the effects worked (age 13 or so), and even now I'm still a bit leery.

Personally, I think I'll steer my future youngins away from certain films until their reasoning skills develop a bit. And as for Bambi - it's not allowed anywhere near me. If my kids ever want to watch it - they can go to a friend's house.

...to some of your posts, as I am eating dinner, THOUGH, I will say, Lani, that I find it quite unfair that you reprimanded me when I clearly demonstrated that Adrienne K began the heated discussion by personally attacking ME. My first post on this topic does not attack anyone.

I tnink an apology is owed and favoritism she not be a pre-requisite to who is allowed to speak their peace on this board.

Stand by for reply's to other posts later.

Originally posted by pullmyfinger.com
...to some of your posts, as I am eating dinner, THOUGH

<snip>

Stand by for reply's to other posts later.

My feet are starting to hurt from all this standing by. I wonder when dinner will be over.......

Hahahahha...that is the best first post ever made...welcome abour Abner Devereaux..be sure to introduce yourself in the lounge.....it will give you something to do while we are standing around!!

I just bought new Sketchers, so my feet are standing comfortably.

Argh!

This one's closed too.