View Full Version : Disney Seas...I'm gonna hurl...
08-10-2001, 10:19 AM
merlinjones is right!
Even if high quality creation are not profitable right away, it does pay in the end:
Fantasia: this costly masterpiece lost money at the begining but it went in the black when Walt was alive. Since then it brought back even more money in theatrical release, video/laserdisc and now DVD (great 3 box set). To that imagine if you cut all the "Sorcerer Mickey" merchandise, all the show in the theme parks.
DLP was not a failure in itself. It was a failure on the financial Jackpot that should have give WDCompany quick billions without any risks & investments.
If you want quick & safe return for your money give it to an accountant or a banker. But Disney needs artists & showmen to create. This company is about show buziness. the "different market" is just an excuze to valid the "ideas" of the suits at TDA.
PS: Merlinjones I must add that the era after Walt death is not so dark: they carry on the Florida project & later create Epcot Center. How eisner would have made billions without WDW ???
08-10-2001, 10:21 AM
I think my point is being missed. Im saying that it POSSIBLE, possibly even PROBABLE that they built us a half way park just to get us itching for more. We've checked out the park now and now California is going to speak up. California will want a better/new park. And I think this may have been the goal all along. Do you follow me?
08-10-2001, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by Bluto
Nowadays, people shiver at the thought of spending millions or even billions of dollars on something that may not turn a proffit. I dont see a huge problem with it. Thats business today.
That's not just business today, that is the way business has always been. Walt just did business a little different.
People shivered at the thought of spending 2 million on Snow White. They thought building Disneyland was insane. Walt Disney Co. was built on taking risks, and now we expect it. We would rather see it go down in flames from being risk takers than by degrading the brand to where no one will buy their products.
08-10-2001, 10:48 AM
After seeing more of those amazing pictures the only thing to do is Boycott California Adventure ....I visited Animal Kingdom once and will not be visiting that park anytime soon.
08-10-2001, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by Kuzcotopia
Imagineers I've talked to really rue the differences between the parks. They all see the difference, and hate that California Adventure sits next to Walt's Dream, while Tokyo Disney Sea will be something that they cannot show their families without great expense.
Those two sentences makes feel so very sad?
08-10-2001, 11:44 AM
Wow, has this thread generated passion amongst the faithful! Since everyone is throwing in their two cents, I think I'll add mine. First, I adamantly agree that DCA was not all I had hoped it would be. But it has only been open for six months! If the company believes that the Anaheim market has dried up, then why invest in a third parcel? I believe the best ways to make our voices heard has already been mentioned repeatedly - hit them where it hurts, at the gate and in the shops.
Now in the interest of fair play, it should be mentioned that Eisner has in fact taken many chances and certainly is no stranger to risk.
#1 - Hong Kong: What bigger risk could there be than that? Yes, it has a HUGE population, but they do not have the financial resources of the Japanese or Americans. But I agree that this is a risk that must be taken.
#2 - Cruise Line: Venturing the Disney brand into a related, but still different market was a risk. One that now seems to be bearing fruit.
#3 - Animation: Disney invests in a small animation company, known mostly for their computer animated shorts. Next thing you know, Toy Story is a huge hit and a five picture deal is struck with Pixar. And as far as risk - Tarzan, Dinosaur, Atlantis and Treasure Planet have broken away from the traditional Disney musicals. Admittedly this has met with mixed success.
#4 - ABC/Capital Cities: Certainly the jury is still out on this one. However, as far as risk taking - this is huge.
#5 - Angels/Mighty Ducks: Another risk taken that may or may not prove worthwhile.
#6 - Club Disney/Disney Quest: Parents shell out big dough to have parties at the Rat (Chuck E. Cheese). Appeared that Disney had just found another market to dominate - guess not. As for Quest, an amusement park in an office building? - guess not.
#7 - Go.com: Enough said.
My point is this. I don't believe Eisner is afraid or avoids taking risks. I think DCA is more the result of the $9.5 billion in borrowings than the avoidance of risk. The dismal attendance figures will not go unnoticed and improvements will have to be made. I believe in five to eight years we'll have a park we can be proud of. Remember Disneyland wasn't built in a day.
08-10-2001, 12:06 PM
I have NO IDEA how anyone could think DCA is better than Knott's! Knott's is one of the BEST parks in the country,and this is coming from someone who's visited over 70 parks!
Yes, it is true that Knott's has lost a *little* bit of its charm under the new ownership of Cedar Fair, and some of it's themed areas don't work (like the Boardwalk). But Knott's Ghost Town is classic! There are few themed areas that are better than GT of all the parks in the world.
Going back to comparisions:
1. Supreme Scream is a much better (and far more scarier) ride than Maliboomer. Plus, it doesn't have those wretched scream shields.
2. Ghostrider is FAR, FAR, FARRRRRRRR better than California Screamin'. CS could have been one of the best out there had Disney decided to go with the usually Intamin trains, instead of having them build entirely new ones with over the shoulder restraints. CS would have been A LOT more fun without them--and ALL for one stupid gimmicky loop.
3. Although, most people would disagree with me, I still think Timber Mountain Log Flume is the best log flume ever built, despite it's cheesy lumberjacks. It flows briskly in and out of the mountain and doesn't just disappear into a warehouse for 3/4 of the ride. Of course, I shouldn't be comparing this to Splash Mtn since this was a comparison to DCA.
4. OK, I'll admit it Grizzly River Run is better than Bigfoot Rapids. Easy one.
5. Kingdom of the Dinosaurs isn't a *great* dark ride, but it is certainly MUCH better than Superstar Limo. Actually, I think anything would be better than Superstar Limo.
But honestly, look at other great rides Knott's has like CALICO MINE TRAIN, PERILOUS PLUNGE, MYSTERY LODGE, and STAGECOACH. Montezooma's Revenge, although a very simple ride, is *still* one of the most loved coasters by coaster enthusiasts.
Then look at the selection of flat rides (aka spin and puke rides) found at Knott's and compare them to the lackluster rides found in Paradise Pier. The Tampico Tumbler is the best flat ride IMO. It's pure fun and it sends riders into gales of laughter. If Disney was to go in that direction of using simple flat rides, they could have a least done it right. Jumpin Jellyfish? Golden Zypher?, Sun Wheel (one rotation?). See what I mean?
Plus, Knott's food is excellent and affordable. Not just the Chicken Dinner, but also Ghost Town Grill serves up great food that's not typical of theme parks. The fresh roasted corn, BBQ ribs booths (mainly during the holidays), battered dipped corn dogs, boysenberry pie, boyenberry punch. Knott's food is really excellent...and affordable.
Also, compare Camp Snoopy to any of the "children's areas" in DCA. I have no kids, but visiting Camp Snoopy is always part of a visit to Knott's for me.
Have I proven my point here? Need I go on about the shows at Knott's versus DCA? Anyone who's seen both places' shows knows what I'm going to say.
Folks, I really think those of you who say is DCA is better than Knott's are victims of the "disney dogma", which is that Disney does everything better than anyone else. With Six Flags parks (and most certainly Magic Mountain) that is definitely true. But it is not the case with Knott's. Knott's is a true gem of a park and I wish people would stop comparing it unfairly to SF parks. DCA certainly fell WAY BELOW Knott's standards. In fact, I think Knott's is the *true* california adventure park.
I wonder how many who say DCA is better than Knott's actually take the time to *explore* Knott's the way they do DCA. Not many, if any, I bet. How unfortunate they are.
Fred of Las Vegas
08-10-2001, 12:45 PM
Saw the third part in MP's series on TDS, went through material about TDS at LP, read another update at MP's TDL board from a person who's visited TDS (he's posted something about Storm Rider), and someone, please help. Get out the bucket! I'm gonna "hurl" too. Would be quite fitting if it were in the direction of DCA.
I notice Al keeps comparing DCA with TDS in the photo series on TDS. Right now, I'm having a hard time thinking of DCA as anything more than bad food that's caused indigestion. It's becoming increasingly irrelevant, sort of like gas that's finally going away. TDS looks like it may very well be that nice dose of Tums or Alka-Seltzer I've needed over the past several months.
08-10-2001, 01:07 PM
I also just saw the third part of TDS.
I think I'm gonna cry.
The picture that struck me the most is
I think of DCA, like the inside queue section of Stupid Star Lamo and those cream walls, and then see this.
Eisner, shortchanged us. He has so a low opinion of the public.
Eisner - Hey, I got a great idea, lets buy a carnival, put it in the parking lot and fill it with shops. We can actually have the marching morons pay us for the privilege of shopping at Disney. What do you think Paul, Barry?
In unison - Yes, sir. Great idea sir. Just fantasic.
(I keep thinking of the scene in The Secret of My Success, on the roof top where all the execs are running around telling the CEO just how great his ideas are).
08-10-2001, 02:49 PM
Corith, that's the picture that made me gasp out loud as well. It's like a kick in the gut. It's so damn beautiful.
I haven't been to DCA. I don't intend to go. Ever. But I'll tell you just from having seen that picture, there is NOTHING that beautiful in DCA.
08-10-2001, 03:23 PM
The thing that sort of gets to me about this whole thing is that when I read a recent Paul Pressler interview, he claimed that they could afford to do a park on this scale in Japan, but not in the US, because (according to Paul) people visiting the US parks don't spend nearly as much on merchandise and food as they do in Japan.
Well, if they *know* that US visitors don't spend on merchandise, then why did Disney put up so many shops in DCA, and why did they invest so much money in building them???
Something about this rationale just doesn't make sense.
Also, after visiting DCA, it left such a bad taste in my mouth, that I really didn't *want* to buy the merchandise.
Why would I want a Golden Zephyr t-shirt?
THE ATTRACTIONS HAVE GOT TO COME FIRST!!! Then maybe I'll consider the merchandise, to remind me how cool the place is!
RideMax for Disneyland Software (http://www.ridemax.com)
08-10-2001, 03:38 PM
Its insulting. Einser thinks that the public are marching morons who will plunk down dollars for anything and everything that either has the Disney name on it or come out of a Disney theme park.
Well, the lackluster attendence at DCA is showing him that he's wrong. We, the public, recognize junk when we see it. We don't want to spend our hard earned dollars for the privilage of shopping at his "Mall"
We aren't attracted nor entertained by his cheap carnival rides.
If we want rollercosters, we'll go to Magic Mountain or Knotts. If we want "eye candy" we'll go to Disneyland. Have lots of children? Go to Legoland. What is the possible draw for DCA?
I'm just so insluted that Einser treats his guests, his customer base, with such utter contempt. He won't even paint the park. With all the money he's making, he could spring for a few dozens of paint out of his own pocket. Just as I'm sure the sun will rise tomorrow, I'm sure that Einser is secretly building a 4 story, steel money bin and plans to swim around in it for fun.
08-10-2001, 03:49 PM
"But comming from a business point of view does that make at least some sense?"
What the heck are WE coming from THAT point of view for??? I'm sure not. Obviously. That's THEIR problem.
I'm a RIDER.
I'm a consumer...I consume...I don't give a Ratz Pitutti HOW they deliver..just what they bring out for my money.
Merlin Jones say's it all.
And...If I don't like it..and I'm not dazzled...I don't give a happy spit what they had to do to justify their huge slaries and bonuses...who cares..I'm sick of hearing about 'their pain' amidst all the BILLIONS and NOT the understanding where US consumers are coming from..
I know, I lack compasion for the supreme beauty of an MBA in gear...but I find that really lacking in entertainment value.
It's no maybe...if they don't deliver the goods because of a PHONEY budget then there is no Disney...enough awready.
I'm going to Legoland and in the future..Shrekland! :D
08-10-2001, 05:16 PM
Another thought to consider is the cultural differences between Japan and America in relation to business risk. The Japanese in general have a longer time horizon when it comes to investments turning profit. Japanese businesses are often more invested in quality from the beginning even if it's more upfront cost.
Does this make sense? I'm pulling from my class on Japanese culture's influence on business. It's been a while though...
However, I do see where people are coming from regarding being disappointed with DCA. It's the attention to detail and theming that sets Disney parks apart from you average amusement park and immerses you in the experience, and I must say that some parts of DCA achieve this for me, but others do not. I am especially turned off by Paradise Pier. I don't think of cheap midway games when I think of Disney. I think of something more along the lines of what I have seen in the photos of TDS, and it is sad that more effort wasn't put into making a great park in CA as well.
I Love that! How better to sum it up as a mass herd being corraled to the slaughterhouse, or more bluntly and forgive me for being Blunt much like the Jewish being misled to the gas chambers by Hitler. And there is nothing we can do about it, the people will stil come and spend their hard earned money for cardboard shows, cardboard food and cardboard repairs, and I thought the Berlin Wall was torn down, There really must be a way to convince Disney that everyone wants better advancements instead of clones, sometimes I believe thats the problem with the American consumer, they do not know quality anymore, they have no appreciation for creativity, no more family honor, everything is either fast food, bigger SUV's, and countless mega-stores selling cheap goods. Eisner did what a good business should do, go with what the popular vote is and apparently the most vote was rides that are just glitzy, rough, fast, cheap to build and available already predesigned. Makes sense as I would have done the same thing, build it cheap and get what you can and ignore the complaints because the people are still going to it. If Eisner was to "leave" the smartest thing to do at DCA is to just start over, leave the major stuff but dismantle Screamin, Sun Wheel, MM, MB, and start over, go ahead and copy from TDS, who cares? Most guests will never see TDS anyway so no harm. Or make part of DCA part of TDS and the third park area more like TDS, there can not be an exact copy of TDS in the US, unless some prime west coast waterfront became available. Hawaii sounds good though.
08-10-2001, 06:58 PM
I know what you meant but Hitler really doesn't apply..we are talking amusements here.
And the 'perception' of the country being a mass of morons is quite different from the actuallity. Not everyone finds the Jerry Springer Show to be a slice of Americana or the Neanderthal gutter trash depicted there, the main stream. T.V tends to give a really false picture of what is reality...REALITY T.V. is more likely than not, the opposite.
And even if it WAS the case...there is the opportunity and the OBLIGATION to raise the bar....and show how it CAN be done...RIGHT.
08-10-2001, 07:16 PM
The only way we as consumers will make a difference is not spend our hard earn money at DCA. And when you renew your annual pass make it for Disneyland and not DCA. Write a letter stating why you have made this choice. We do have the power...dont forget that!!!!
Sorry about the last post I was emotional. The moderators may remove it if they feel inclined, now getting to an inspiration and I really have no idea where to post I am sticking it here as THIS topic is HUGE! I am hoping someone gets this idea (mousy mousy heres some cheese....) Why couldn't Disney purchase or lease a complete Island? somewhere close to Florida or within 2 days travel by the Disney Cruise Line, build it up like the Mysterious Island with hotels along the beach at the outer perimeter and a man made "berm" high enough and shaped like a volcano? Inside is "Vulcania" where Captain Nemo has designed a theme park, it does not have to be like TDS but it would have the elements of fantasy, adventure, and retro=futuristic gismos. The only way to reach the island is by booking on the Disney Cruise ships that offload at the piers but to enter the inside of the volcano you board a fleet of subs that travel through an underwater tunnel, there is also a regular entry available by a peoplemover or omnimover system available but I would like to see aeril tram gondolas go up over the mountain with a resturant and stores at the top of course and another tram down into the caldera. This sounds pretty good but of course if it happens remember my name cause I thought of it first.:cool: Another aspect of getting to the island would be a fleet of hovercrafts much the size of those used in crossing the English Channel, they can ferry the cars but at a price.
08-10-2001, 07:33 PM
If there is such an island, I want it for Jurassic Park: The Resort! I've got some amazing plans for that! :D :D :D
08-10-2001, 07:36 PM
Just imagine if you saw these headlines in the news somewhere or even here on MP:
"ORIENTAL LAND COMPANY TO TAKE LEAD ON DISNEYLAND RESORT'S 3RD GATE"
OK, now I'm REALLY dreaming..
And what WE become the churro treats?:D
What if OLC did? What would they do with say 20 or 30 plus BILLION? in say 3 to 5 years from the net profits? Could they just walz right in and BUY DL? I bet they could in a heartbeat. That is what the the real scenario is, Disney will be so shaken up because of its second hand image that nobody will visit, nobody will spend money and the cost cutting will continue, the layoffs will expand, and the execs will keep getting their "bonuses" until eventually the board will say, Enough! We do not care who owns this outfit as long as we the shareholders see some profit, that is the bottom line, wait and see it is just around the corner.
08-10-2001, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by Mr D
I am hoping someone gets this idea (mousy mousy heres some cheese....) Why couldn't Disney purchase or lease a complete Island? somewhere close to Florida or within 2 days travel by the Disney Cruise Line,
Disney has already purchased an island, called Castaway Cay. Sue Holland wrote up a Disney Cruise Line trip report about a month ago that details the port-call at Castaway Cay.
To be honest, when I heard Disney was buying their own tropical island for a cruise line stop, I was hoping it would be a fantastic new park instead of just... an island where the boat stops.
Originally posted by Bluto
The market over in Eastern Asia and Japan is totaly different than here in Cali. The Japanese love Disney and shell out tons of yen for it. Thats why TDS is a bigger, better park than DCA. I think Eisner would tell you as much. Its a business thing. Supply and demand. The demand was huge over in Tokyo. So they're taking care of that.What is the justification for spending lots of money on TDS if the Japanese love everything Disney, and would shell out tons of yen to visit it ANYWAY?
08-11-2001, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by lani
What is the justification for spending lots of money on TDS if the Japanese love everything Disney, and would shell out tons of yen to visit it ANYWAY?
I totally agree. Pressler and others are talking about the cost of capital as justification for amount of money spent vis a vie DCA vs. TDS. In reality, the difference was who picked up the tab.