Unused remainders of passes on craigslist..?

[CariBelle]

But if some people bought a multiday pass because it was more economical, then they couldn't go all the days and are now trying to sell the remainder days to someone who might be able to go and enjoy a Disney park, then so be it.
But with these types of "sales" that usually isn't the case. Brokers are selling these tickets to people and making triple what each ticket is worth by "renting" days of a park hopper.

[nbaum]

As with everything else in life, if you can't afford to pay....

This.

[3Princesses1Prince]

I
Since they don't make the kids scan, I would be all for scanning at DL. If adults mix up the tickets, well, that's what they have cell phones for. Call the other adult to bring the correct one. I believe you can refuse the scan at WDW and show your license and signed ticket, but I may be wrong about that.

I heard at WDW they link everyone's ticket and finger scans that are purchased together so as long as you are one of the 4 people that entered, you are good.

[CMHusband]

These tickets are illegal. I hate to see someone who really needs to save money get ripped off. It happens every day. be aware that Disney has LOTS of security (many that you won't even see, if you get my drift) and they are looking for these "scalpers" all the time.

People come up to the booths everyday with problems with these tickets only to find out they got taken. Tickets are NOT TRANSFERABLE and Disney will confiscate them if you they even slightly suspect you didn't buy them originally.

[Angie2009]

So I get that selling the last day of your parkhopper pass is a violation of the contract between you and Disney because of the contract terms on the back of the ticket (which you can know before you buy). So Disney doesn't honor the ticket.

But that's contract law between two parties. Violating a contract isn't illegal, it just causes penalties called out in the contract (voiding ticket). People break leases on apartments or paint their house a color not allowed by their homeowners association all the time - it's not a crime, just a violation of contract.

I don't like the precedent of ticket resales being illegal - that the government has decided to become the enforcer of the contract on behalf of the large company. Will people be put in jail for breaking a lease next?

Companies that resell tickets are going to get slammed and shut down, but it should be a civil not a criminal thing. The police have enough to do with punishing criminals, not enforcing civil contracts. The civil courts can handle it.

That said, it obviously has been made illegal to resell Disney tickets at least in Florida. I don't know if it has been made illegal to buy them or use them, a quick search didn't find me the actual law in California, anybody have a link?

[adriennek]

Mail fraud? At that point what fraud has been committed? Someone offered a ticket for sale, someone else bought it. The fraud occurs when person B goes through the turnstile purporting to be person A who first used the ticket.

The fraud would be that they're selling something that is not-sellable? It says right on the ticket "non-tranferable"?


Companies that resell tickets are going to get slammed and shut down, but it should be a civil not a criminal thing. The police have enough to do with punishing criminals, not enforcing civil contracts. The civil courts can handle it.

Uhm, no body said that anyone was getting arrested? They said that the tickets can be denied at Disneyland. They said that Disneyland will confiscate the tickets, deny people entry, refuse to upgrade them, cancel the APs of people found to be illegally selling the tickets... these are all civil actions.

If anyone wants to risk losing the money they spent on the tickets because they knowingly bought illegal tickets to save a buck that's their choice. Personally, I find it another example of entitlement in modern day society. (And the bolding is mine, recognizing that no everyone realizes that it's illegal.)

Adrienne

[candles71]

I heard at WDW they link everyone's ticket and finger scans that are purchased together so as long as you are one of the 4 people that entered, you are good.
I think it was momof3 (Mily), who did have a problem with her kids' ap's cause her mom had the wrong one for the child with her.


I don't like the precedent of ticket resales being illegal - that the government has decided to become the enforcer of the contract on behalf of the large company. Will people be put in jail for breaking a lease next?

California Penal code
537.2.b (b) Any person who uses or attempts to use ski area facilities for
which payment is required without paying as required, or who resells
a ski lift ticket to another when the resale is not authorized by
the proprietor, is guilty of an infraction.
The precedent has already been set. (1) sets forth the punishment which is under $400, a fine up to $1000, $400 and above, fine up to $1000, and/or up to 6 months in jail. Lift tickets are only slightly cheaper than Disney;). BTW, I find it interesting the chapter this is under is called False Personation and Cheats.

[adriennek]

The precedent has already been set. (1) sets forth the punishment which is under $400, a fine up to $1000, $400 and above, fine up to $1000, and/or up to 6 months in jail. Lift tickets are only slightly cheaper than Disney;). BTW, I find it interesting the chapter this is under is called False Personation and Cheats.

ooooooooooh. Look at the ski area business owners working their state assemblypeople and senators.

Adrienne

[Mouseketeer1955]

When Disneyland was using their own radio system, and not Nextel, I listened to them with my scanner. One day, as I was listening, I heard security following some Disney employees who were caught selling tickets. It sounded like a major narcotics enforcement operation going on because they had security on the roofs tracking those people as well as security on the ground. Disney takes that kind of thing very serious, and is not very Disney friendly when they catch it.

Personally, others on this thread have the right idea, just save until you can afford to go. You will be money ahead in the long run and you won't have the stress because you're always trying to stay under the radar.

Look at it this way. Disneyland is a great place to go, but is it really worth all of that heartache and hassle ?

[Tinkermommy]

As I understand it, the multi-day parkhoppers go down in daily price as the number of days increase in order to give guests who stay longer (therefore, presumably, spending more) a break.

When a person reimburses themselves for part of the cost of a long-term parkhopper by selling the unused days to another, in violation of their ticket "contract" with Disney, it defeats the whole purpose of giving the original purchaser a price break. Both parties end up with discounted tickets, which is not what Disney intended by offering these tickets.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Disney recently do away with the long-term parkhoppers at the Disneyland Resort for just this reason? People who bought these tickets with no intention of using them as they were intended essentially caused the removal of the discount for people who would have used them legitimately.

I've read some of the auctions for these tickets, and can't believe anybody would do this. Just the wording about meeting off-site, having to leave your ID with a stranger until you return the passes; cash only payment, makes me wonder why people go, "Oh, okay." Sure, some of these sellers make good on their side of this "deal," but when they don't -- how do you explain that you thought it was a legitimate transaction under these circumstances?

[Angie2009]

Disney set up an entry pricing system that provides an incentive for people to buy longer passes. I don't like the idea of my tax dollars going to enforce a system that Disney designed, and I don't like the idea of the government enforcing civil contracts.

The folks in Florida were arrested, as mentioned in an early post in this thread.

Obviously, the ski lift folks have made ticket resales illegal as well.

I think it shouldn't be illegal in California to resell the last day of your ticket. Because if something is illegal that means the police have one more law they have to enforce. If somebody breaks into Disney, it's trespassing. If somebody knocks someone over the head and takes their ticket, it's theft. A crime in Disneyland should be punished like a crime anywhere else. But a special set of laws to enforce Disney's contracts - what a waste of resources and my money.

So if there is a law which makes it illegal - not a contract violation - I think it's too bad such a law exists. If such a law doesn't exist, it's not illegal, it's not a crime, it's a breach of contract. Doesn't make it ok - breaching a contract can be worse than breaking the law. Many people who don't feel bad about speeding would never consider walking away from a promise made in a contract.

All that said, would I buy those crazy ebay tickets where you meet at the park and leave a license? No Way, I think you'd have to be crazy to do so. But would I buy an unused parkhopper on Ebay that somebody received as a gift or bought for a trip that was canceled and so it was never used? Yes, certainly, with no guilt whatsoever.

[adriennek]

Disney set up an entry pricing system that provides an incentive for people to buy longer passes. I don't like the idea of my tax dollars going to enforce a system that Disney designed, and I don't like the idea of the government enforcing civil contracts.

The folks in Florida were arrested, as mentioned in an early post in this thread.

Gotcha.

Off the top of my head, I don't have any problem with it. First off, it's not like these people didn't know what they were doing. It would be one thing if they were spending a lot of time going after a family on Craig's List trying to make a buck on their vacation (which I have varying levels of negative opinions about.) But if I were to rank which violation was "worse" I'd say that setting up an illegal business is fraud. Their business was illegal. There are plenty of ways to LEGALLY sell or profit from admission media to those theme parks. If there weren't, we wouldn't have travel agents.

These people do not just hurt Disney but they hurt travel agents and businesses which choose to legally work with Disney and other companies.

What's the point of having a legal system if it doesn't defend the people who pay for it? Yes, you pay taxes, so do the businesses and business owners and the employees of those businesses who deserve to be defended. And if the government does not back up its laws with action, what deterrent do the laws provide?

Don't get me wrong. I have plenty of issues with the legal system. I have multiple physicians in my family and my husband works in the pharmaceutical industry. ;)

Adrienne

[AJDerrick]

But would I buy an unused parkhopper on Ebay that somebody received as a gift or bought for a trip that was canceled and so it was never used? Yes, certainly, with no guilt whatsoever.

That's a big difference though. At that point you're buying an UNUSED ticket, so you aren't 'transfering' the ticket to anyone else because it hasn't been used. If you're the first person to use a pass then you should never have any problem.

As for wasting law enforcement resources, I doubt it actually goes that far often. Disneyland is stocked with its own security detail, it's why they're there. I think it's completely within their job scope to deal with people who are breaking the contract stated on the ticket.

[CariBelle]

But would I buy an unused parkhopper on Ebay that somebody received as a gift or bought for a trip that was canceled and so it was never used? Yes, certainly, with no guilt whatsoever.

Apples and Oranges.

[Toocherie]

In my opinion it's just a matter of degree. While you may not think that using unused days on a parkhopper constitutes a "crime" at what point does it become a crime? Someone has to actually steal the ticket before you would get government involved?

The point is that Disney offers the longer-term parkhoppers as an incentive TO THE PERSON ORIGINALLY PURCHASING THE PASS to stay longer. I don't see any difference between the person who switches out using a pass on the same day and the person who uses someone elses unused parkhoppers--it's still wrong. Someone is getting something they don't deserve (both the person using the unused parkhopper days--at a cheaper price than normal--and the person selling the unused parkhopper days). Maybe you don't think it's criminal but I do. It's depriving Disney of the income they are entitled, as a business owner, to receive from each person who wants to go to the park. I'm sure somewhere some Disney accountant has done a spreadsheet or formula of how much it costs Disney to have someone walk through the gates--and ticket prices--which have just gone up--are priced accordingly. When people abuse the system then the return to Disney gets skewed and then prices are going to have to go up even more. Which then impacts me and you.

There are laws about ticket scalping many places. I don't see this as any different.

[3Princesses1Prince]

But would I buy an unused parkhopper on Ebay that somebody received as a gift or bought for a trip that was canceled and so it was never used? Yes, certainly, with no guilt whatsoever.

1) as Caribelle said Apples and oranges
2) HOW do you know its unused?

[Malcon10t]

But would I buy an unused parkhopper on Ebay that somebody received as a gift or bought for a trip that was canceled and so it was never used? Yes, certainly, with no guilt whatsoever.So, you buy the ticket, you arrive at the park, and as you go through the turnstile, Disney's CM says "I'm sorry, this ticket has already been used and is expired." But, they told you it was unused! Good luck!

[Teddi]

And as far as "answering a question about what days you used a hopper ticket" to be able to upgrade- WRONG.

Try, you will probably have to answer about 20 questions, as in
what day did you FIRST use the ticket?
what part did you enter first?
what time did you enter on X day of use? ANd the 2nd day of use? Repeat, times however many days were on the hopper
and how was this hopper purchased? (online, travel agent, at the gate).
WHO purchased it?

[3Princesses1Prince]

And as far as "answering a question about what days you used a hopper ticket" to be able to upgrade- WRONG.

Try, you will probably have to answer about 20 questions, as in
what day did you FIRST use the ticket?
what part did you enter first?
what time did you enter on X day of use? ANd the 2nd day of use? Repeat, times however many days were on the hopper
and how was this hopper purchased? (online, travel agent, at the gate).
WHO purchased it?

What FPs did you get first on X day?

[Malcon10t]

Let's not forget "What credit card did you use to purchase the tickets?" My son and DIL pulled out the CC they used when they were grilled, and they STILL questioned it. It didn't help that they said they used them on a Sunday, when we used Club 33 tickets that day to enter.... It was a mess.

[Mermaid]

And as far as "answering a question about what days you used a hopper ticket" to be able to upgrade- WRONG.

Try, you will probably have to answer about 20 questions, as in
what day did you FIRST use the ticket?
what part did you enter first?
what time did you enter on X day of use? ANd the 2nd day of use? Repeat, times however many days were on the hopper
and how was this hopper purchased? (online, travel agent, at the gate).
WHO purchased it?

Yup- I got all these just when we added an extra day to a PH too. I have sold unused tickets that I won on the radio on CL. I don't really see it as any different then selling them to a friend. I won 8 tickets and only needed 2. This was when ToT first opened. I sold them for like $20 under face. Now, would I do it again, honestly, probably. But, I would not sell or buy partially used tickets- too risky and I am sure this is partly why ticket prices continue to rise.

[Angie2009]

So, you buy the ticket, you arrive at the park, and as you go through the turnstile, Disney's CM says "I'm sorry, this ticket has already been used and is expired." But, they told you it was unused! Good luck!

Yes, it could happen. When I've done this it has been with people who've done business on ebay before. Yes, ebay has scammers. I personally haven't been scammed this way, and I did buy about 6 tickets for one time I had a group visiting who were short on money, otherwise we would have done single park passes. This way they got to see both parks, and they were unused tickets. If I were shut down at the gate, it would be a bummer. Much like getting a priceline hotel that has a $30 daily parking fee - which has also happened to me.

[Angie2009]

In my opinion it's just a matter of degree. While you may not think that using unused days on a parkhopper constitutes a "crime" at what point does it become a crime? Someone has to actually steal the ticket before you would get government involved?

The point is that Disney offers the longer-term parkhoppers as an incentive TO THE PERSON ORIGINALLY PURCHASING THE PASS to stay longer. I don't see any difference between the person who switches out using a pass on the same day and the person who uses someone elses unused parkhoppers--it's still wrong. Someone is getting something they don't deserve (both the person using the unused parkhopper days--at a cheaper price than normal--and the person selling the unused parkhopper days). Maybe you don't think it's criminal but I do. It's depriving Disney of the income they are entitled, as a business owner, to receive from each person who wants to go to the park. I'm sure somewhere some Disney accountant has done a spreadsheet or formula of how much it costs Disney to have someone walk through the gates--and ticket prices--which have just gone up--are priced accordingly. When people abuse the system then the return to Disney gets skewed and then prices are going to have to go up even more. Which then impacts me and you.

There are laws about ticket scalping many places. I don't see this as any different.

I don't really care what Disney does in its spreadsheets. I care about the contract I make with them and who enforces it. If they make a system they can't enforce, they should change their system. They are the business, it is their responsibility, not the government's. The government didn't design the parkhopper system.

I love Disney, but I don't want them to be able to write laws that can put people in jail.

[Mermaid]

I love Disney, but I don't want them to be able to write laws that can put people in jail.

Well, they can't. Only Congress (both federal and state) can write laws- Presidents and Governors and the like can request laws to be written, but ultimately that power is given the the House and the Senate. So, in a similar way Disney can ask their lobbyists to talk to the representatives to work on a law, but they can not themselves write and enact laws.

There are also many many laws that you can break and not go to jail for. I have been known to jaywalk a time or two. Illegal eviction or breech of contract are laws you see broken on TV all the time. There may be a fine or some other consequence (getting tickets revoked, banned from park etc) but you won't go to jail.

[Bolivar]

When I hear the term, "it is illegal to do x", I think of a crime. Evicting someone unlawfully is not a crime, breaking a contract is not a crime. We (and maybe it is just me in the way I am interpreting the word illegal) are mixing up tort and criminal law. Illegal evictions are torts, robbing someone is a crime; breaking a contract is a tort, fraudulently entering into a contract is a crime.

The police or the DA (the criminal justice system) will not get involved in torts. You can't be prosecuted for breaking a contract, the aggrieved party needs to sue the other party.

If someone receives a transferred ticket, the contract is broken and Disney has no obligation to honor it -- the contract which means the ticket. Also, I guess they would have a tort case against the person who sold it, but I would imagine all they could get would be damages which might be the cost of a ticket. But no crime is committed that I know of. That is the key here in my post -- that I know of. I was surprised by that ski resort thing and I work at a ski resort.

But again, those saying it is illegal, what do you mean by that? Are you talking about a crime being committed and if so, what is it? I am curious.