Perhaps I never noticed it because the non-DLR reports are of no interest to me, but does anyone else agree with Stephen B's assertion that David Koenig and Brian Bennett are homophobic? (today's mailbag (http://www.mouseplanet.com/mailbag/index.htm)) I tried to read the columns he cited but they are not valid links. Since I couldn't see for myself and draw my own conclusions, I figured I'd ask y'all.
Stephen B wrote:
In his 7/22/02 column, a reader thanks [Brian Bennett] for his assistance in avoiding Gay people in the area.Like I said, I couldn't read the original, but I wonder if BB simply wrote about Gay Days coming up and the reader interpreted that as (and thanked him for) "a warning"...?

I'd love to hear your opinions.

Originally posted by SzczerbiakManiac
Like I said, I couldn't read the original, but I wonder if BB simply wrote about Gay Days coming up and the reader interpreted that as (and thanked him for) "a warning"...?

I highly doubt it. I remember that particular mailbag from Brian. As you may know, not all visitors to WDW are liberal and/or open-minded about alternative lifestyles. I'm pretty sure they asked when Gay Day was and Brian merely answered them.

In any event, I personally wouldn't interpret Brian's answering the email as a validation of homophobia. :)

Sheila

I have read the referenced columns and included the links below for others:

10/8/02 column (http://www.mouseplanet.com/dtp/archive/notes_from_the_world/bb_questions86.htm)

7/22/02 column (http://www.mouseplanet.com/dtp/archive/notes_from_the_world/bb_questions76.htm)

What little I know of Brian Bennett, he doesn't hide the fact that he is a member of the Southern Baptist faith. I think that this has a lot to do with his opinions of homosexuality. I don't see what I would call "homophobia" in his writings, but I do think he believes homosexuality is wrong, as preached by his faith.

Stephen B.'s assertion that "Mr. Bennett agrees with a reader who compares homosexuals to alcoholics and drug addicts" is more inflammatory than Sabrina (the original writer) intended it to be. Sabrina stated that "[Homosexuals] need Jesus in their lives just like alcoholics and drug addicts do" in the 10/8/02 column. She believes homosexuality is wrong, and that she should pray for homosexuals.

I personally do not agree with this view, but both are entitled to their opinions. Brian's presence on the site will not prevent me from visting or reading his articles.

I haven't read David Koenig's books, so I can't comment on the content in any of them.

Originally posted by stan4d_steph
I haven't read David Koenig's books, so I can't comment on the content in any of them.

I've read three of his books (heck, I'm even credited in one of them), and I never got that impression from anything he wrote.

Originally posted by stan4d_steph
I haven't read David Koenig's books, so I can't comment on the content in any of them.

I have read MouseTails and More Mouse Tails and there was nothing that even remotely portrayed homophobia in them.


as a side, i have no idea how someone can even think they have the right to judge someone based on what they perceive as wrong. maybe I am naive, but I'm sure that all those who judge gay people as doing something against the bible have done many things against the bible themselves....those who live in glass houses.....

Originally posted by HB Tigger Fan
as a side, i have no idea how someone can even think they have the right to judge someone based on what they perceive as wrong. maybe I am naive, but I'm sure that all those who judge gay people as doing something against the bible have done many things against the bible themselves....those who live in glass houses.....

Are you referring to Brian or just stating this in general?

I feel there is a line between judging and believing. You can believe something is wrong and demonstrate this by your conduct. "I believe eating beets is wrong, and therefore will not eat beets." Judging is the extreme and is not acceptable, imo. "I hate you because you eat beets! You are an immoral person."

I realize this is a generalization, but I'm having a hard time figuring out how to say it here.

Originally posted by stan4d_steph


I feel there is a line between judging and believing. You can believe something is wrong and demonstrate this by your conduct. "I believe eating beets is wrong, and therefore will not eat beets." Judging is the extreme and is not acceptable, imo. "I hate you because you eat beets! You are an immoral person."

I realize this is a generalization, but I'm having a hard time figuring out how to say it here.

K, how about this Steph--in regards to judging:

Judge not that you be not judged--Matthew 7:1

" Now what this means is not don't make a proper evaluation, you're supposed to make a proper evaluation of things. ... what it means here is stop criticizing, stop being condemning and sensorious and critical and fault finding and self-righteous. Stop playing God. Stop trying to impugn people's motives when you can't even read their hearts. Stop pushing your criticism to the point where you're playing God because in verse 2 with whatever judgment you judge, you will be judged, and with whatever measure you measure, it will be measured to you again. "
--John MacArthur

*shrug* I found it helpful anyway :)

So based on this particular definition, I have not read anything that would be considered "judging" from either of them.

stan4d_steph wrote:
I have read the referenced columns and included the links below for others:
10/8/02 column (http://www.mouseplanet.com/dtp/archive/notes_from_the_world/bb_questions86.htm)
7/22/02 column (http://www.mouseplanet.com/dtp/archive/notes_from_the_world/bb_questions76.htm)Thanks for the links Steph. Now I can make an educated analysis.

I think I agree with you that Mr. Bennett isn't necessarily a homophobe. Yes, his beliefs are quite clear and while I wholeheartedly disagree with many of them, I respect not only his right to have them but a consistency with his chosen lifestyle.

I received two of David Koenig's books for Xmas so I'll be able to read for myself what the beliefs he expresses in them are.


I would like to add that the "anyone else" in the title of this thread referenced "Stephen B". I probably should have called it "Does anyone else besides Stephen B think David and/or Brian are homophobes?". At the time I wrote it, I had no opinions one way or the other on either of the aforementioned writers' feelings.

Steph,
I was just talking in general, no one in particular.

Interesting. Personal feeling no. However, this is the second time this week that I've read something in that vein. The first was when I read this post Originally posted by fabdisbabe on this thread (http://pub138.ezboard.com/fjimhillmediafrm17.showMessage?topicID=26.topic) at JimHillMedia.com (http://www.jimhillmedia.com/main/index.htm)

There's a rumor going around - Jim and I got emails about it - that Al left because MP is anti-gay. I can safely say that's not true. Al was asked to leave for a completely different reason. Totally, completely. Entirely. MousePlanet is not an anti-gay site, and the people on it are not homophobic. Yes, someone emailed Brian Bennet to ask how to avoid gay day, but reading the email, I'm seeing more an aversion to the crowds than who they're composed of. I emailed David Koenig to ask about the accusations made against him, and I truly believe that he's not - yes, he's a devout Christian, but I've seen him "eating at the same table with tax collectors" with no problem.At the time I thought hogwash and printed out the thread for later reading as it was starting to get juicy.:) I assumed at the time that this rumor had to do with some of the more heated threads we have had on the subject, however, I'm beginning to suspect it's more of an attack on MousePlanet.

Note: The above discussion link was in response to the article: DizBiz: JHM.com Person of The Year (http://www.jimhillmedia.com/nav4/index.htm?../articles/guest/dizbiz.12312002.1.htm~contentFrame)

Ok I've read some really 'dumb' things on the net but that has to be the absolute most ridiculous of all......

While I understand why Alex chose to run this particular e-mail, I would have preferred to leave the troll under the bridge. That letter was nothing but an attempt to stir up trouble, and I suspect that the writer has an agenda.

I can't speak for Brian Bennett. I don't think anyone can read his content and not understand the religious beliefs he holds, or the perspective he brings to his columns. I personally disagree with Brian on this issue, but I respect his beliefs.

In all of the time I have worked with Brian, I have not *once* known him to resist working with anyone because of their sexual orientation, or to cause problems inside MousePlanet on the basis of that issue. Never. Not once. Brian has his beliefs, but he is professional and friendly with everyone on staff.

I can't speak for David Koenig. I can't find anything in his books, which I have read cover-to-cover, to support these allegations. I also can't recall a single instance where he raised this issue in his dealings with MousePlanet.

As for the rest of MousePlanet, and our supposed lack of balance, all I can say is that the comment about "diversity training" was hysterical. The MousePlanet staff has always been, and continues to be, an extremely diverse group - gays, straights, singles, marrieds, people with kids, people who never want kids, Baptists, Mormons, Jews, Catholics, vegetarians, carnivores, French- and Japanese-speakers, cat people, dog people, and people who hate asparagus. What, exactly, are we supposed to be training in? How to be MORE diverse?

(Apparently we have a job opening for people who actually like asparagus. Send your applications to Alex)

If we're discussing the homosexual issue specifically, I've buried friends who died of AIDS, volunteered with APLA, and have spent a life surrounded with gay friends, relatives, employees and co-workers. Does that make anyone feel like the site is more balanced? Do I cancel out Brian?

I will also say, one last time and I truly hope people finally believe this, Al was not asked to leave MousePlanet, for ANY reason. Al chose to leave the site for his own reasons, made his intentions known to the board of directors, and went on his way.

Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is pushing an agenda of their own that has no basis in reality.

AVP

(And, the nice thing about MousePlanet - I'm allowed to disagree PUBLICALLY with the CEO. We all have our opinions, and we're allowed to express them.)

Originally posted by AVP
people who hate asparagus. What, exactly, are we supposed to be training in? How to be MORE diverse?

(Apparently we have a job opening for people who actually like asparagus. Send your applications to Alex)

WAIT A MINUTE-- What's this about people hating asparagus? I knew about all the other stuff but I didn't get the asparagus memo. The Krock's love asparagus. Who doesn't like asparagus? Hello! I thought we who are carnivores know about the delish bacon-wrapped asparagus at Bengal BBQ...

I had no idea. I'm gonna have to re-think this whole thing. Nice way to let a person know...

Adrienne K
(I'm semi-serious- who doesn't like asparagus? I knew about Jen and cilantro...)

Whoops - my bad. Apparently we already have someone who likes asparagus. MousePlanet is now 100% completely diverse.

AVP

I don't know if I can continue to work with people who don't like asparagus. I'll have to get over this one, I suppose. I got over the cilantro thing, I guess I can get past this.... I know it makes your pee smell but really, it's good!

Adrienne K

I have to day that my "Homophobia Early Warning System" normally has a hair trigger, but I couldn't find anything in the MouseTales series that triggered it ! (actually, I kind of like his books...)

Chookers, Darls !
Rob :D

and now, off for a nice plate of steamed asparagus with lemon and butter

Originally posted by AVP
I will also say, one last time and I truly hope people finally believe this, Al was not asked to leave MousePlanet, for ANY reason. Al chose to leave the site for his own reasons, made his intentions known to the board of directors, and went on his way. In posting that quote I in no way meant to imply that Al was asked to leave. I posted it because it was the first time I read the MousePlanet is anti-gay spiel and it dealt with the subject of this thread.

Originally posted by Lashbear
and now, off for a nice plate of steamed asparagus with lemon and butter [/B]

I guess spring's over now, you're really more into summer, but I'll bet you can still get some good aspargus. I love it with lemon and butter. I hope that AVP's aversion to asparagus won't discourage you from reading our site...

Adrienne K

Originally posted by jslivinski
In posting that quote I in no way meant to imply that Al was asked to leave. I posted it because it was the first time I read the MousePlanet is anti-gay spiel and it dealt with the subject of this thread.

And I completely understand. I find it amusing / telling that nobody has come *here* trying to make this particular claim, but they are spreading this version of the story far and wide on the newsgroups and other message boards.

After all, if they tried to post that nonsense here, we'd do exactly as I have done and debunk it. Posting to other boards where we can't reply is so much more effective, when a smear campaign is what you're really trying to persue.

My frustration isn't with you for repeating this story, it's with the people who insist on spreading a story that anyone with an ounce of understanding of MousePlanet dynamics knows has to be absolutely false.

I can't explain why Al chose to leave MousePlanet. He did, for his own reasons, without being asked, coerced or pushed. It was his decision and he can explain it if he chooses to.

But when Al's decision to leave MousePlanet is somehow blamed on an anti-gay bias of the remaining staff, OR when someone says he was asked to leave, I'm going to be here to correct them.

AVP

SzczerbiakManiac,

I have noted in the past Brian Bennett's writing about the subject and more than disagreeing with him, I actually don't respect his point of view.

We all can be brought up in different ways, but as we become adults we have to take responsibility for our own morality. To blame your own homophobia on the church you grew up in means that you condone it, and have no desire to change your church.

Let us remember that the Southern Baptist Church was founded on slave ownership, and continued pushing against civil rights and racial integration even into our lifetimes.


They used Biblical Scripture to justify that as well. I recall being shocked and upset by racism among Baptist Church-going friends in the South in my youth. I remember them explaining to me how the sons of Ham were cursed by Noah, and were to be the lowest of slaves for the sons of Shem and Japheth. The sons of Ham were the Egyptians, Cushites, Ethiopians, Libyans, Canaanites, Assyrians and Babylonians. In other words, the blacks.

Biblical scripture was still used as justification for racism, and still being spoken of, at least in Texas in the 1980's.

Through the work of noble and good-hearted members, the Church changed itself. They allowed interracial marriage and interracial services and churches. They issued a statement of apology for past racism in 1995. There are still many wounds left to heal, and more work to be done, but they have admitted the wrongs of the past.

Brian is very polite and non-confrontational about his views, and he uses calm easy-going language in respectfully "agreeing-to-disagree" with the changing moral awareness of society and the dawning equality of gays and lesbians.

I nevertheless feel a chill when he writes about these issues.

I look forward to your comments on David Koening's books, SzczerbiakManiac. I haven't read it, nor have I seen anything in his columns about gay rights at all. I'll let you be my litmus test in that arena! Till then, I'll obviously give him the benefit of the doubt. Better yet, let me know if you like the rest of the book, I may want to buy it myself!

Originally posted by Kuzcotopia
I have noted in the past Brian Bennett's writing about the subject and more than disagreeing with him, I actually don't respect his point of view.

We all can be brought up in different ways, but as we become adults we have to take responsibility for our own morality. To blame your own homophobia on the church you grew up in means that you condone it, and have no desire to change your church.

Kuz, I honestly am not sure how to respond to your post. From a couple of comments that Brian has made, somehow I feel that he is being made to pay for any and all statements made by some spokespersons for the Southern Baptist Church.

As AVP mentioned earlier, Brian really is one of the nicest, easy-going and, most importantly, tolerant people I have met. It's not just some act he puts on. It is baffling to see intolerance and homophobia being ascribed to him and David.

I know that the religous right has made for quite a bigoted and hostile atmosphere for those who live an alternative lifestyle. Although I am straight, many of my friends are gay and I know the discrimination they have faced.

He is certainly entitled to his practice of religion just as you are entitled to your opposition to some of the tenants of the Southern Baptists. This is America, thank goodness! :)

It's just that I just wish that a very good person like Brian was not being painted with such a broad brush that is undeserved.

I understand the desire to end discrimination, but to do it at the expense of an individual who is not an enemy of the equal rights cause is ultimately self-defeating to the greater cause of equal rights for all.

Sheila

Here are Brian's comments, taken from a mouseplanet article:

I may anger you further (or just again) when I say that I believe that homosexuality is sin. I'm sorry being offensive, but I believe that the Bible has made that clear. It doesn't mean that I think you are any different than me, though. You've sinned (in my opinion according to the Bible) by committing the sin of homosexuality, but I've sinned just as much -- if not more -- through lying, cheating, stealing, showing anger, lust, and any number of other sins. I'm not proud of that, but neither do I think of you as "worse" than me.


http://www.mouseplanet.com/dtp/archive/notes_from_the_world/bb_questions85.htm


That's his very agreeable, "I have no enemies" tone, while stating that "homosexuality is sin". (Anti-gay people almost always use the word "homosexual" rather than gay, because of its shocking use of the word "sex." They never use the word "heterosexuality" or even "sexuality" for that matter.)
He talks about how he has sinned, and he is even WORSE maybe than a gay person. Of course the cure for his sins of lust and greed are to ask forgiveness and try to never do it again. There is no such haven for gays. They can pray for forgiveness, but to try and never be gay again is the craziest thing imaginable to a gay person. Should my gay mother "try" to not be in love with her legally-wedded wife? (Go Vermont!) Really, that is impossible! And utter madness.

There is nothing agreeable or polite about homophobia. Members of churches are responsible for the moral standing of the church. Members of the Southern Baptist Church took a stand and addressed their racist past. You want to bet that ALL of them were taught that the scripture of Genesis proved that God wanted the Sons of Ham to be slaves? But they saw through that. They saw it as racism, and meant to be cast aside with the discarded falsehoods of the past.

They took a bold step, and a necessary one, to CHANGE their thinking, and change the way they interpreted and taught Genesis 9:25:

.he said, "Cursed be Canaan!
The lowest of slaves
will he be to his brothers."


He is of course free to practice his religion. But religious beliefs should not be a shield to hide behind after preaching bigotry.

Originally posted by Kuzcotopia
Should my gay mother "try" to not be in love with her legally-wedded wife? (Go Vermont!) Really, that is impossible! And utter madness.

There is nothing agreeable or polite about homophobia.

Technically, if your mother gave birth to you (without having used artificial insemination) she is a...bisexual. BTW, I've seen TV shows dealing with the topic of guys who are being fought over by both males and females, and the guy admits to being tempted by both!

Moving past the type of orientation that involves personal partnerships, there's the political kind that influences how a person applies a word like "homophobia." In many instances such labeling is used as much because a person has a certain ideological persuasion, and not necessarily because the actual circumstance that's being judged warrants the use of a politically-loaded word. In this case, homophobia to some may be "heterophobia" to others. Or visa versa.

Kuzcotopia - I think you're being unfair to Brian. You're quoting him, then reading too far into the quote and actually blaming him for things he hasn't done or said. He's obviously no bigot, but you actually blamed him for being such. I'm going to have to call BS on this one.

It's obvious he doesn't support the Southern Baptist Church in all its teachings and practices. He doesn't support the Disney boycot and has given scriptural references to support why he doesn't agree with it. So yes, he does think for himself and isn't just following blindly. You can't blame him for things he didn't do. Everything you bring up was done by people Brian probably doesn't even know. So give it a rest.

My mother's orientation is exactly as she describes it. We won't vote on it here.

As for using a politically-loaded term, I use "homophobia" because it is a valid descriptor that is actually less-loaded than many terms referring to actions that are anti-gay. The terms start with "prejudice" and "bigotry" and get nastier and more inflammatory from there.

"Homophobia" refers to misunderstanding and irrational fear of gay people and gay rights, rather than hatred of those people.