Originally posted by Bill Catherall
Kuzcotopia - I think you're being unfair to Brian. You're quoting him, then reading too far into the quote and actually blaming him for things he hasn't done or said. He's obviously no bigot, but you actually blamed him for being such. I'm going to have to call BS on this one.

It's obvious he doesn't support the Southern Baptist Church in all its teachings and practices. He doesn't support the Disney boycot and has given scriptural references to support why he doesn't agree with it. So yes, he does think for himself and isn't just following blindly. You can't blame him for things he didn't do. Everything you bring up was done by people Brian probably doesn't even know. So give it a rest.


What things am I blaming him for? I only said that I do not respect his point of view, which I quoted from his own article on this site. That point of view, that gays are sinners through the very act of being gay, (and by extension, unsaveable without becoming straight) is one I hold reprehensible.

As he has a right to his beliefs, if he states them out loud, I have a right to say that I disagree with them.

Which I have done now. So without any other posts, I think I've said my point of view.

Originally posted by Kuzcotopia
"Homophobia" refers to misunderstanding and irrational fear of gay people and gay rights, rather than hatred of those people. Then you still mislabeled Brian. It's pretty obvious he's no homophobe because he doesn't have an irrational fear of gay people. Just because you (in the general sense) think something somebody does is wrong, doesn't mean you are afraid of them, or think anything less of them.

I don't like it when people smoke. I think it's unhealthy and is a terrible habit. Does that mean I hate people who smoke or have some kind of irrational fear? No way! I have many friends who smoke who I care for dearly.

In fact, all of my friends and family do things that I don't like and I think is wrong. Even I do things I think are wrong and I don't like. Geeze, I guess I hate myself don't I. :rolleyes:
What things am I blaming him for?
You said (or actually implied) that he hides his bigotry behind a shield of religious beliefs. You said that the he puts on an "agreeable, 'I have no enemies' tone," implying that it's a facade used to make his bigoted feelings sound pretty.

OK, I am calling a Moderator Time Out on this thread

As a matter of policy, we allow discussion of MousePlanet columnists and their MousePlanet content, but there are limits.

If you want to say, "Brian wrote "this", and I disagree with him," fine

Paraphrasing what Brian actually wrote, and then saying "Brian wrote this because he's one of those slave owner-sympathizing Southern Baptists and he wants everyone to hate gays" is NOT ok.

This thread has gone beyond a discussion of Brian's content, and devolved into a discussion of Brian.

(And may I point out that his columns were posted when AL was the publisher of the site?)

If you want to discuss Brian's views with him, write to Brian. If he wants to hold the discussion publically, he can come here to do it. But we are not going to allow futher discussion of Brian as a person.

AVP

I have no intention of trying to argue that my views are right. Frankly, my opinions are personal ones... and in retrospect, I should never have made them public.

Obviously, I've shared my views when answering reader email and in publishing the piece I researched and wrote (for my own personal understanding) on the Southern Baptist Convention's boycott of the Walt Disney Company (http://www.mouseplanet.com/dtp/archive/other/boycott.htm).

In any case, the reason why I post here is not to defend myself, but just to correct a couple of facts:

First, I am not a member of a church that belongs to the Southern Baptist Convention. My church is an independent, local church without any national affiliation.

Second, I do my best to base my beliefs on my own understanding of what the Bible says. Although the Bible makes some pretty harsh statements, I truly believe that it is the Word of God and I honor it accordingly.

Third, I am not homophobic. By definition, the term indicates a "fear" of homosexuals (or gay folks, if you prefer that term). I do not fear, nor am I repelled by homosexuals. Matthew 7:1 has already been cited in this thread as a reason for not judging others. I completely agree! Furthermore, in the Boycott piece that I provided a link to above, I cited I Corinthians 5:12 which specifically states that Christians are to judge those within the church and are specifically told NOT to judge those that are outside of the church.

Funny thing about Christianity; Jesus save us from all our sins.
So what does it matter if you believe homosexuality is wrong ?
Even if you believe it is, if those gay people believe in Christ, they're forgiven.

I think people need to pay more attention to better things than other people's sex lives.

Boy...it's a good thing nobody is coming in here and making wide-sweeping generalizations. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by brian
I have no intention of trying to argue that my views are right. Frankly, my opinions are personal ones... and in retrospect, I should never have made them public.
In this era when people say and do anything and everything, when Ozzy and Sharon Osbourne are sort of like today's answer to Ward and June Cleaver (or Ozzie and Harriett) and their two kids are sort of like 2000's version of Wally and the Beav, it's rather unusual (even refreshing?) for someone to express a desire to restrain himself.

Third, I am not homophobic. By definition, the term indicates a "fear" of homosexuals (or gay folks, if you prefer that term). I do not fear, nor am I repelled by homosexuals.
Forget emotions based on Christianity or, for that matter, antheism, etc. I think MOST parents will feel differently if their 16-year-old son is set up on a blind date with another boy than if he's set up to meet some girl. And while most moms and dads will be queasy seeing their teenage daughter smooching with another boy, I think they'll feel even queasier if they see her making out with another girl. The different responses behind all this are not exactly uncommon, and they transcend people of different religions, cultures and political beliefs. Even a lot of people who say they're super open minded about the issue probably share at least some of the reactions seen in the typical parent.

Originally posted by brian
I cited I Corinthians 5:12 which specifically states that Christians are to judge those within the church and are specifically told NOT to judge those that are outside of the church.
So, your quote from earlier should have been "Christian homosexuality is a sin..."?

As for whether Brian and David are homophobes... being a practicing homosexual male who happens to consider SzczerbiakManiac a good friend, I say 'who cares?'

If they are, fine, just keep posting their stuff about Disneyland, that's all I truly "need" from them. In fact, that's something we have in common: Disneyland and all things Disney. Do I have to dwell in our differences? Nope.

If I found an author anti-gay (which I would extensively investigate first), I wouldn't buy his/her books. But there are libraries... ;)

Example: I may not buy Eminem's CDs (because of his intolerant rhetoric concerning gays), but I like a couple of his songs and I can relate to his anger. We are never going to be friends, but that's not what he's there for.

I can go on and on about my feelings about religion versus homosexuality, but what difference will it make if someone believes what I say or not? It matters little. What I'm here for is to make a living, be respectable, make friends, help others when I can and have fun. I'm not going to spend my life trying to change someone. You can't.

I definitely do not think MousePlanet/MousePad is anti-gay. But if they are, okay... They are responsible for me meeting a lot of cool people: gay, straight, religious, not religious, of every race etc. That's all that matters.

As for Mr. Stephen B ~ No one I know, gay or straight, clicks banners. :D

Originally posted by AVP


Paraphrasing what Brian actually wrote, and then saying "Brian wrote this because he's one of those slave owner-sympathizing Southern Baptists and he wants everyone to hate gays" is NOT ok.


Adrienne,

you just paraphrased ME! I wish you wouldn't, as I feel you completely mischaracterized what I came here to say.

I don't remember paraphrasing Brian, though I did quote him directly. I already said that I said my peace on this issue. No need to post after it with a phrase that's way more inflamatory than anything I said, unless you want to add more fuel to the fire!

I'm not sure why we are so afraid of discussing this further. It's not like the whole website will melt down. This is how we deal with things, we talk about them, get them in the open.

I think we've explored the gamut of the supposed "homophobia" of the New MousePlanet. If this is all that came of it, I think that Stephen B.'s charges hold no more juice.

Originally posted by MMFan

Forget emotions based on Christianity or, for that matter, antheism, etc. I think MOST parents will feel differently if their 16-year-old son is set up on a blind date with another boy than if he's set up to meet some girl. And while most moms and dads will be queasy seeing their teenage daughter smooching with another boy, I think they'll feel even queasier if they see her making out with another girl. The different responses behind all this are not exactly uncommon, and they transcend people of different religions, cultures and political beliefs. Even a lot of people who say they're super open minded about the issue probably share at least some of the reactions seen in the typical parent.


I have had several experiences where I can say you are flat out wrong with your parental beliefs. My friends teenage daughter came out to her parents and both her "straight" parents accepted her decision and have never gave her any guilt about her girlfriends. My other friends son came out and his parents didn't give him any guilt either.

So maybe in the circle you are in those parents would have an issue, but no parents in the circle I am in would have any issue.

Originally posted by HB Tigger Fan
I have had several experiences where I can say you are flat out wrong with your parental beliefs.

So maybe in the circle you are in those parents would have an issue, but no parents in the circle I am in would have any issue.

I'm sure there's some parents out there who really don't think twice about such things. Then there's another group who in order to look cool and kid-friendly try to give their children wide latitude by being very permissive guardians, saying one thing out loud (or in public) but feeling something very different in the back of their mind. Sort of like the contradictions seen in the Osbourne family, where the rock musician father has led a wild and crazy life with drugs and alcohol and yet chews out his kids for doing the same things he's done. I've even seen parents of two different races or ethnicities (which I definitely don't think is such a big deal) showing mixed emotions when they learn their own kids may be dating or marrying people of certain races or ethnicities!

I know in some societies parents arrange blind dates or marriages for their kids. If there's ever a day when I hear about such parents happily hooking up their sons with other boys, or daughters with other girls, or parents in America learning about such customs and then getting all thrilled or nonchalant about them, that's when I'll admit that MOST people no longer see much difference between homo- and heterosexuality.

I think if even very carefree people in society are honest with themselves, they'll admit they too have tinges of disquiet or hesitancy about gay behavior that aren't too dissimilar from what I saw on a TV documentary about Koko, the famous gorillla who was taught sign language from early on. The female primate had been introduced to another non-biologically related male gorilla when they were both children.

The researchers noted that as Koko and the other gorilla became adults, they never chose to mate with each other because of a sister-brother type bond that had developed between them. They had transferred an innate sense of the kind of behavior that's seen as either pleasant (or very commonplace in nature) or taboo onto a relationship that wasn't even identical to the biological situations where such responses normally occur------and keep in mind there's a reason that contrary behavior in humans is turned into a lurid joke about what takes place with backwards people in the Ozarks or Appalachia. In human culture this is the dividing line between relationships that make people feel very cheerful and those that make them feel somewhat, if not very, uncomfortable.

MMfan,

In the not-too-distant past the majority of white parents would feel that same twinge if their daughter was dating a black man.

For the majority of white families, that has changed. Mixed-race marriages are very common, in fact most of my married friends are married to spouses of a different race.

I think that people's attitudes toward gays are still changing.

I hope that we keep on this path, rather than toward the ugliness of the past.

Originally posted by Kuzcotopia
I think that people's attitudes toward gays are still changing.

I hope that we keep on this path, rather than toward the ugliness of the past.
I'm optimistic. There are a lot of great people in the world.
:)

I unconditionally love my children. That means I will support them no matter what paths they choose in life.

That said, some paths will be harder for me to accept than others. If my son is gay, I will accept that. Will I wish he were straight? Yes. Why? Because the reality as I see it is that life is easier for straight people than gay people. I know it will cause him challenges that I would not wish for him to face. Because I've seen people being beaten up and killed because they are gay. What mom is going to wish that for her son?

Along the same lines, if my son decided to be a pilot on an air craft carrier, that would break my heart. That does not mean that I don't like pilots on air craft carriers. That means that I will miss him horribly when he's gone and constantly worry about his safety.

I could go on and on but I will stop there.

In either case, I will survive and I will love my son the same, but neither of these would be choices I would make for him and I'm not going to pretend otherwise.

Adrienne K

Originally posted by adriennek
I unconditionally love my children. That means I will support them no matter what paths they choose in life.

That said, some paths will be harder for me to accept than others. If my son is gay, I will accept that.
No one chooses to be gay. It's the way you were born.
:)

Originally posted by Gemini Cricket
No one chooses to be gay. It's the way you were born.
:)

I believe that, GC-- I worded it correctly in the second part of my quote ("If my son is gay") but it wasn't consistant with the first part of the quote. Sorry- I didn't mean it to sound like it was a choice.

Adrienne K

MMFan and everyone,

On the flip side, my female friend who is gay and in a committed life relationship has a teenage daughter who is very much straight, and she was talking about how she has to accept that her daughter is straight and imagines it would be much like a straight parent accepting their child is gay. She has unconditional love and loves her daughter no matter who her daughter loves.

Originally posted by AVP
This thread has gone beyond a discussion of Brian's content, and devolved into a discussion of Brian.

True... but since I was stupid enough to share my personal views on the site, it's not really unreasonable for folks to discuss those views. As they used to say on LA Law, "you," (actually me, in this case), "opened the door, councellor."

(And may I point out that his columns were posted when AL was the publisher of the site?)

I'm not sure that's really relevant.

If you want to discuss Brian's views with him, write to Brian.

I'll certainly respond if anyone does want to discuss this via email.

Originally posted by Gemini Cricket
(Referring to my comment, "Originally posted by brian
I cited I Corinthians 5:12 which specifically states that Christians are to judge those within the church and are specifically told NOT to judge those that are outside of the church.") So, your quote from earlier should have been "Christian homosexuality is a sin..."?

Actually, my opinion makes no difference. I'm not in a position to make those decisions, so all I can do is make sure that I behave the way that I believe I should... and that means showing love to everyone.

If God has decided that certain behavior is sin, who am I to decide otherwise? Also, since God is the one that has defined sin, who am I to do anything other than live the way He wants me to live? I am NOT supposed to be concerned about the choices or decisions or behaviors or actions of others... just myself.

I'll let my Pastor, who is responsible to God because of his role in the church, to decide who, if anyone, has to be judged within the church. That's not my job either.

Originally posted by Kuzcotopia
In the not-too-distant past the majority of white parents would feel that same twinge if their daughter was dating a black man. This reminds me of a conversation I had with an African-American woman a few years ago. During our discussion she made comments that indicated she was a very liberal person, saying things that indicated she was a staunch backer of the Democrat Party, the opposite when it came to a more conservative philosophy (and Republicans). That's why I was so floored when she later started talking about her single daughter and how unhappy she was that the girl was dating Caucasian guys.

I found myself arguing that the internal quality of a person, or his character, was far more important than the external, and that it was much better if her daughter found a decent mate who just happened to be of a different race than a miserable, abusive person who shared her black heritage. It was odd, though, how my comments seemed to flow right past her, and how she continued to remain unfazed by the fact she was ignoring the very important idea that people should be judged by the content of their character, not their race, etc.

Slightly related to this was the interview Barbara Walters did with Leo DeCaprio, Steven Spielberg and Tom Hanks, all in the same room, several weeks ago. I say "slightly related" because many years ago I recall Ms. Walters, who's never been known to utter an unkind word about homosexuality, being interviewed on a late-night talk show about a group of actors she herself had just interviewed, and her making a slightly snide remark about them not being exactly the most masculine types she could have chosen for her well-known TV specials.

So here it is years later, and she's talking with the baby-faced star of "Titanic" and "Catch Me If You Can," goading him into revealing what type of person he's romantically attracted to. The tone of her interview implied there was a bit of doubt as to the sex of those Leo DeCaprio finds most appealing. I (and I may be wrong) sensed that some of the grinning shown on the faces of Spielberg and Hanks as they watched Leo deal with the question was one of nervousness more than the kind of sly delight where guys poke each other in the ribs.

Regardless, let's all be honest: if most people watching that interview heard Leo start telling everyone how he would much rather have sexual relationships with males, not females, would that be no different than his telling Ms. Walters he's romantically involved with such-and-such an actress? As it turns out, even in this age of "Will and Grace" and sexual openess, DeCaprio's response was somewhat guarded and a bit ambiguous.

Originally posted by HB Tigger Fan
On the flip side, my female friend who is gay and in a committed life relationship has a teenage daughter who is very much straight
The irony and coincidence of your friend and Kuzcotopia's mother both having children (and I'm assuming not through artificial insemination) is sort of the capper of this conversation.

Human behavior is complex and full of variables. I'm sure there's some people who really cannot initiate and maintain relationships with the opposite sex, no matter what. Males, in particular, for the obvious reason related to the joke about them, unlike women, not being able to fake you-know-what.

But I cannot tell you how many times I've encountered people who I've guessed may have been gay (because they were somewhat effeminate or masculine), only to learn later they had children (who apparently were their own, biologically) along with opposite-sex spouses or significant others. In such instances, I've almost been as dumbfounded as when I spoke with the Afri-Am woman I described above.

Some activists in the community may not want to admit it, but, as is true of so many things, their certainly is more free will involved in the way people choose life mates or partners----------ever hear of those women who love abusive guys, and who even when battered by them, return to them (either the exact same person or the same type of person) over and over again, as was the case with the late Mrs. O.J. Simpson?

At the very least, don't assume this topic is cut and dried, and that everyone should be labeled ("homophobic" or "heterophobic") and categorized accordingly, whether you agree or disagree with them.

My apologies for this message looking as long as War and Peace

Originally posted by MMFan
The irony and coincidence of your friend and Kuzcotopia's mother both having children (and I'm assuming not through artificial insemination) is sort of the capper of this conversation.

Her daughter is her partners biodaughter, through artificial insemination. I guess I left that part out.

Originally posted by HB Tigger Fan


Her daughter is her partners biodaughter, through artificial insemination. I guess I left that part out. [/B]

Yeah... some things are better left out. Too much information HB!

;-)

Originally posted by Kuzcotopia
Yeah... some things are better left out. Too much information HB!

;-)

except for the fact that it still raises the question to this quote by MMFan The irony and coincidence of your friend and Kuzcotopia's mother both having children (and I'm assuming not through artificial insemination) is sort of the capper of this conversation.

Whats the capper MMFan? Humm????