PAP Renewal "Black Hole"

[Autopia Guy]

I think you forgot "I pay your salary".

Salary? Sorry, Im hourly!


To be honest here, the CMs at Guest Services as well as the Gate CM were doing their jobs. Giving more than one courtesy visit per year is technically against the rules and the CMs could get in trouble for it. Heck, technically, there is NOTHING in the AP Terms and Conditions about a "Courtesy Visit" so therefore Disney doesn't have to do anything, [i[technically[/i]... And the Gate CM could also get into a lot of trouble if he got caught letting someone into the parks on a non-valid AP, especially because of the issues with the Monthly Payment option. So, yeah, just so happened that you really did get caught in the "perfect storm" of those CMs who were just following their training to the letter and value their jobs.

[Tinkermommy]

Giving more than one courtesy visit per year is technically against the rules and the CMs could get in trouble for it. Heck, technically, there is NOTHING in the AP Terms and Conditions about a "Courtesy Visit" so therefore Disney doesn't have to do anything... And the Gate CM could also get into a lot of trouble if he got caught letting someone into the parks on a non-valid AP, especially because of the issues with the Monthly Payment option. So, yeah, just so happened that you really did get caught in the "perfect storm" of those CMs who were just following their training to the letter and value their jobs.

I'm pretty sure the salary comment was meant tongue-in-cheek.

Re one courtesy visit a year -- that was a huge part of why I objected to entering with my one courtesy visit a year when I hadn't forgotten my pass. I would be grateful to Disney if they let me enter without my pass once on a courtesy basis, if needed. But I had a paid-for pass that had not reached its expiration date. I had a receipt for a whole 'nother year. Sure, they don't have to do anything if I need a courtesy pass -- but I shouldn't have needed one in the first place. I didn't WANT one. I just wanted to use the 365-day pass I'd paid for and held in my hand.

Re the gate CM -- I value CMs who value their jobs. I value them, too. And I appreciate your feedback. I am grateful they eventually let us in. I thanked them. But I didn't ask for monthly payments, so the problems with people defaulting shouldn't have affected me. I paid no small chunk of change to get paid-in-full passes, so I feel it's inappropriate for a CM to immediately assume I've defaulted. I didn't.

If there was a "perfect storm," I think it was actually the guest (me) arriving in the period between pass renewal and receipt, and Disneyland not having a guest-friendly method of dealing with the situation rather than assuming I've defaulted on a contract. I don't fault the CMs; I fault the procedure. If the CMs were following their training to the letter, there needs to be different training, or a lead standing by to handle overrides. And that was the whole point of my original post -- that there has to be a better way of handling this situation.

When people said I should write to Disney, I mentioned that I wasn't going to, because I didn't think it was that common. But now that multiple CMs have weighed in expressing the belief that I shouldn't have expected to get to use my pass in this situation, I think I will. Not out of anger or frustration or an "I'll show you" attitude (because I feel none of those on this issue) -- but ONLY because I think it's now clear that there is a procedural issue that needs to be addressed.

[Tinkermommy]

When people said I should write to Disney, I mentioned that I wasn't going to, because I didn't think it was that common.

PS, (because it's too late to edit my previous post) -- I should have added that if I do write, it will be only about my experience at the gate and guest services.

No mention of this discussion, MP, or even the "stupid complaints from ungrateful guests" part. :eyeroll: As they say, what happens on the board, stays on the board.

(Bearing in mind, of course, that anybody in the entire world can read the board.)

[cstephens]

So, yeah, just so happened that you really did get caught in the "perfect storm" of those CMs who were just following their training to the letter and value their jobs.

Isn't that what a lead is for? If the CM didn't have the authority to do something, which I understand, they should have called a lead who could take care of the problem. A cookie-cutter approach doesn't work, and presumably, a lead could have looked at the situation, figured out what the problem was, and had the authority to do what was necessary to fix the situation.

She wasn't asking them to take her word that she had renewed. She had the receipt. If Disney's systems have a problem with handling the renewal properly, than that's why the actual PEOPLE should be able to do what the machines cannot.

That's why it's called customer (or in this case, guest) service.

[Second Star]

I have to say that I am on Disney's side on this one. If you already previously knew that you had renewed your pass and you knew it hadn't come yet, then Disney has every right to be reluctant to issue you a ticket. And you should've just taken the courtesy ticket. Are you that much a forgetful person that you know you will forget to bring your pass in the future?

If this kind of attitude was the norm at Disney, we wouldn't have to worry about park attendance. There'd be none!

I personally don't care what your rules are. If I'm presenting a valid pass that hasn't expired, and it is not function because of a renewal, that Disney's problem and not mine. They need to figure out how to make that right. I'm generally a pretty tolerant person, but, I can guarantee you that if a turnstile CM present the attitude I think I seeing here, I'd chew my way right up the backside of the entire Guest Service organization.

HorizonA, you've identified yourself as a new CM. IMO, I think you do yourself and your employer a dis-service in your presentation. There are many Disney customers on these boards.

And Autopia Guy, I understand that the CMs have rules that they are suppose to follow, but there is one rule I learned a long time ago. Do what your supervisor(s) tell you to do. I worked in the front lines of customer service early on in my career, and while the customer may not always be right, it is never a good idea to tick him or her off. If you can't satisfy a customer's issue that is what your supervisor is there for. BTW, I'm using you in the general sense, this is not direct at you personally.

[HorizonsA]

I personally don't care what your rules are.


And that's why there are some reluctant Cast Members who go out of their way to make sure that people are not trying to "talk" their way in, because people like you just don't care. It's sounds as if you're the type of person who says, "I don't care what they say, I'm going to force my way in if I have to, or I'll stomp my feet and moan about it until they do let me in."

Being a fellow Cast Member, I am merely defending both the Main Gate CM and the Guest Services Cm who were only doing what THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO DO in a situation like that.

"Oh, I don't have a valid pass, but let me in anyway!"

[Second Star]

And that's why there are some reluctant Cast Members who go out of their way to make sure that people are not trying to "talk" their way in, because people like you just don't care. It's sounds as if you're the type of person who says, "I don't care what they say, I'm going to force my way in if I have to, or I'll stomp my feet and moan about it until they do let me in."

Being a fellow Cast Member, I am merely defending both the Main Gate CM and the Guest Services Cm who were only doing what THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO DO in a situation like that.

"Oh, I don't have a valid pass, but let me in anyway!"

Nice job of taking my statement out of context. I do hope I don't experience your style of customer service the next time I am at Disneyland. With the attitude you exhibit, I don't think you will last long.

[Donald Duck Fan68]

And that's why there are some reluctant Cast Members who go out of their way to make sure that people are not trying to "talk" their way in, because people like you just don't care. It's sounds as if you're the type of person who says, "I don't care what they say, I'm going to force my way in if I have to, or I'll stomp my feet and moan about it until they do let me in."

Being a fellow Cast Member, I am merely defending both the Main Gate CM and the Guest Services Cm who were only doing what THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO DO in a situation like that.

"Oh, I don't have a valid pass, but let me in anyway!"

You missed the point entirely. What they are trained to do in that situation doesn't match the situation, so the "rules" (that is, the letter of the law that the CMs are following) don't apply to the OP's situation. Disney needs to understand the situation that is happening to PAP holders who renew online, who pay in full, and who try to enter the park BEFORE the new passes arrive and while their current passes haven't yet expired. In other words, I don't care what your rules tell you to do in this situation, it really doesn't apply to the situation at hand, and it isn't the customers fault that Disney has this glitch.

The OP DID have a valid pass, as well as proof that she paid for the NEXT YEAR in full with the receipt in hand. I don't think the request to be let into the park was unreasonable or to be taken as trying to talk her way in without a valid pass.

[Malcon10t]

"Oh, I don't have a valid pass, but let me in anyway!"
So, she paid $389 for a pass that is valid for 365 days, but you are saying if you renew early, you lose some of those days as a penalty for doing what Disney wants you to do?

Nice attitude.

[adriennek]

Being a fellow Cast Member, I am merely defending both the Main Gate CM and the Guest Services Cm who were only doing what THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO DO in a situation like that.

"Oh, I don't have a valid pass, but let me in anyway!"


So, she paid $389 for a pass that is valid for 365 days, but you are saying if you renew early, you lose some of those days as a penalty for doing what Disney wants you to do?

Nice attitude.

What she said.

You (Horizons) have it totally WRONG. She DID Have a valid pass. She had PROOF that she had a valid pass. HELLLLOO??? Are you kidding me??

There just aren't enough eyerolls.

Adrienne

[DizneyMommy]

Didn't you say in another thread that you don't renew your pass, you get a new one each year? If that's the case, then you would get a new number each time.

I had an odd experience a few weeks ago - the CM at the M&F parking structure couldn't get the system to accept my AP for free parking. She said it showed my valid-through-12/31/09 pass as "expired," and asked if my pass was on monthly payment plan. She seemed to think that I was late in my payments. It took a few moments and a call to a lead to get me past the toll booth (holding up everyone in line behind me - sorry, folks!), but I didn't have any problems once I got to the park main entrance.

Perhaps the APs that are paid in full should be marked with a code of some form?

AVP

The same thing happened to me not too long ago too, might have been around the same time as you. They had fugured out by the time I tried to go in that there was a system glitch that made passes go wonky. I was driving in at 7:45am and he said I had already used my pass to enter the parks so I could not park the car... DUH - parks not open yet!

[mickey4ever]

^ We had the same thing happen with our Park Hoppers we purchased from AAA for our May vacation. Said we had already used the six days, and it was only day one of our vacation! It did this everyday, and thank goodness I had all my documents and receipts! On day 4 we were fed up with the scrutiny we were getting, so we went to the Pass Center (where we were told to go). We waited in line for about 45 minutes. I showed them all my documents, they then had to verify when they were purchased. We were not very happy with the way we were being treated, like criminals. We had purchased 3A and 2C 6 day park hoppers directly from AAA. So once the lead CM verified everything, we asked to speak to whomever was in charge. By this time my DD (4) and her birthday was having a meltdown. The Park Manager came over from DCA, we explained the situation, and that we were not happy with they way this had been handled. He apologized greatly. Because of some glitch in the system, our hoppers were not being recognized. So we asked if we could just upgrade to DAP's. We did, then he also gave us 2 day hoppers that will not expire for 2 years. He did not have to do this, but because of some system error somewhere, he felt the need to.

So I feel the situation worked out for everyone. :)

[cstephens]

Being a fellow Cast Member, I am merely defending both the Main Gate CM and the Guest Services Cm who were only doing what THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO DO in a situation like that.

"Oh, I don't have a valid pass, but let me in anyway!"

You've obviously not been reading this thread carefully enough because it's very clear from the first post that she had valid admission to Disneyland and DCA for more than a year at that point, but Disney's systems were at fault. When I worked at Disneyland, if there was a problem involving a guest's admission, DOING WHAT YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO DO did not mean belittling or berating or harassing a guest. It meant that if there was an issue which you did not have the authority to take care of, you would call your lead, who did have the authority to handle it. Looks like the two CMs didn't know enough to pass the issue along to their lead to get it handled properly.



The Park Manager came over from DCA, we explained the situation, and that we were not happy with they way this had been handled. He apologized greatly. Because of some glitch in the system, our hoppers were not being recognized. So we asked if we could just upgrade to DAP's. We did, then he also gave us 2 day hoppers that will not expire for 2 years. He did not have to do this, but because of some system error somewhere, he felt the need to.

It's too bad you had to go through so much hassle, but it was terrific that the manager recognized that it was a problem and took steps to take care of it.

[adriennek]

When I worked at Disneyland, if there was a problem involving a guest's admission, DOING WHAT YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO DO did not mean belittling or berating or harassing a guest.

So nice I thought it should be said twice.

Adrienne

[Autopia Guy]

I'm pretty sure the salary comment was meant tongue-in-cheek.

As was my reply. Though it is hard to convey in text. Should have put a smilie or two in hindsight.


I personally don't care what your rules are. If I'm presenting a valid pass that hasn't expired, and it is not function because of a renewal, that Disney's problem and not mine. They need to figure out how to make that right. I'm generally a pretty tolerant person, but, I can guarantee you that if a turnstile CM present the attitude I think I seeing here, I'd chew my way right up the backside of the entire Guest Service organization.

Really now? Cause yelling and screaming at someone gets you EXACTLY what you want. You don't care what the rules are, you want it done your way rules be damned, and if not, you are going to go give someone crap over it because they didn't do what YOU wanted them to do?

That is what this tells me. Maybe you mean something different that I'm just not seeing?


If you can't satisfy a customer's issue that is what your supervisor is there for.

And what is to say that the CMs at the locations weren't doing what their supervisor told them to do? Yes, a supervisor (or lead, in the case of most places) can make exceptions to help a guest. But it is not the job of a lead to be there to break every rule for a guest to solve every situation.

You wouldn't be much of a lead if every time you are asked for help by your crew, you basically make them look like idiots or worse because they didn't help the guest the way the lead was "able to". Believe me, I see it every day when a lead makes some "exception", then forces the CM to basically go eat their words and do what the guest wanted in the first place, even if it is against the "rules" that the CM was trained to follow. It doesn't help the morale of your crew very much.

[Second Star]

Really now? Cause yelling and screaming at someone gets you EXACTLY what you want. You don't care what the rules are, you want it done your way rules be damned, and if not, you are going to go give someone crap over it because they didn't do what YOU wanted them to do?

That is what this tells me. Maybe you mean something different that I'm just not seeing?


I know this doesn't apply all the customers you interact with, but, I generally don't yell and scream at front line customer service types. I will get terse of course if they choose to cop an attitude with me, and or refuse to deal with my issues. And if your rules include shutting out a paying customer in good standing, then your rules are wrong! Plain and simple. Personally, I do expect anyone to do anything for me just because that's what I want. I do expect, if I am holding and present a valid AP, for the AP to be honored. And the fact that there may be system glitches are not my problem. If you think they should be, then you are wrong. If I was to show up at the gate without my pass, I wouldn't just expect to be granted access, but I would hope that there would at least be a willingness to see if there was anything that could be done.

BTW, just for the record, on my trip at month to Disneyland, I lite into a customer that was giving a CM a bad time, because it was uncalled for.



And what is to say that the CMs at the locations weren't doing what their supervisor told them to do? Yes, a supervisor (or lead, in the case of most places) can make exceptions to help a guest. But it is not the job of a lead to be there to break every rule for a guest to solve every situation.

You wouldn't be much of a lead if every time you are asked for help by your crew, you basically make them look like idiots or worse because they didn't help the guest the way the lead was "able to". Believe me, I see it every day when a lead makes some "exception", then forces the CM to basically go eat their words and do what the guest wanted in the first place, even if it is against the "rules" that the CM was trained to follow. It doesn't help the morale of your crew very much.

If the CMs are doing what they are told, and the lead has to continually override their decisions, then something needs to be fixed. And sorry, but it is the lead's job to be there to fix any issues his or her subordinate cannot. And, just because it may be against the rules for you to do something, doesn't mean the lead is violating the rules. If you are viewing that way, then I think you've got that one wrong too.

I'm not saying that you do not face people trying to play the system. However, if you treat every situation like it someone trying to get one over on you, you are going to tick off some good customers.

[cstephens]

But it is not the job of a lead to be there to break every rule for a guest to solve every situation.

It's not the job of a lead to find a solution to a problem caused by Disney's own systems that is unnecessarily inconveniencing a guest?

[olegc]

I find this discussion quite interesting from this perspective. It appears that the prevailing sentiment from those who are CMs and posting is that most if not all guests are trying to get something for nothing and/or pulling a fast one against the resort - so it's in the park's best interest to shut down any of this type of activity in order to stop fraud. While this ensures cost containment and prospective cheaters it also hurts legitimate guest issues that should be resolved in the guest's favor.

bottom line is you really can't have a uniform policy and stick everyone to it - especially with a negative bent. You should have a standard policy and then allow for a case-by-case basis contingency for those on site to be able to solve problems. This way you catch most of the fraud but, as in tinkermommy's case with her proof in hand, you can make adjustments and know the company is not being duped.

[adriennek]

Oleg, please, there is NO room for logic in this discussion! We are talking about a Disney SOG. Stop being so... logical!!!!

Adrienne

[DizneyMommy]

I'm just curious... what IS Disney's actual policy on this? The year of the 50th I was going to renew by mail to get the special ap design, but I knew I would want to go for my bday before the new pass arrived. I called and asked guest services about it, even asked for a lead, and the answer I got was, you may not use your pass from the day you mail the renewal until the day the new one arrives. It seemed ridiculous to me at the time, that I would be losing days that I had paid for, but it was the policy and they make the rules so I renewed at the park instead and forfitted the keepsake 50th pass (kicking myself now).

I've always been of the understanding that is just the way it is, as much as it stinks, and if that doesn't work for you then you should renew inside. Is that what Disney wants us to think to make their lives easier at the gate, or is the policy really that you CAN use it once you renew during the "black hole". I never thought it was fair to make me lose days I have paid for, but I just went with what I was told.

[disney42dude]

If they let people know ahead of time that your old pass won't be valid from the time the new one is mailed, I do not see what the big deal is. I don't recall how, but I knew that before I renewed by mail. If you know you're going to want to visit the parks during what would be that week or two "gray area", don't renew by mail. Your old pass becomes invalid once the new one is created and mailed to you, therefore the CM was doing his job.

[adriennek]

If they let people know ahead of time that your old pass won't be valid from the time the new one is mailed, I do not see what the big deal is. I don't recall how, but I knew that before I renewed by mail. If you know you're going to want to visit the parks during what would be that week or two "gray area", don't renew by mail. Your old pass becomes invalid once the new one is created and mailed to you, therefore the CM was doing his job.

If you're paying for a 365 day a year Premium Annual Pass, or any annual pass, the grey area is completely unacceptable, especially when the Cast Members treat the guest like garbage in the process. I am not suggesting that PAPs or APs should be treated better than other guests, I am saying that guests, period, should be treated with respect not disdain and suspicion.

Adrienne

[Malcon10t]

If they let people know ahead of time that your old pass won't be valid from the time the new one is mailed, I do not see what the big deal is. I don't recall how, but I knew that before I renewed by mail. If you know you're going to want to visit the parks during what would be that week or two "gray area", don't renew by mail. Your old pass becomes invalid once the new one is created and mailed to you, therefore the CM was doing his job.So, if you pay for 365 days, it is acceptable to you to lose anywhere up to 2 weeks of that, simply because you renew and give them another $370 ahead of time?

This year, we renewed at the ticket booths to avoid these issues. It takes more employee time, is less automatic, but we avoid dealing with the gate issues.

[disney42dude]

So, if you pay for 365 days, it is acceptable to you to lose anywhere up to 2 weeks of that, simply because you renew and give them another $370 ahead of time?

Maybe it's more for people that live farther away and don't go as often or spur of the moment. It's a renewal option. Don't use that option if it doesn't work for you. I didn't mind because I live far away and I was upgrading, which actually gave me 6-7 weeks of added benefits which I was able to use on 2 trips down south.

[candles71]

There just aren't enough eyerolls.

Adrienne
Can I borrow your eye drops?

If they let people know ahead of time that your old pass won't be valid from the time the new one is mailed, I do not see what the big deal is. I don't recall how, but I knew that before I renewed by mail. If you know you're going to want to visit the parks during what would be that week or two "gray area", don't renew by mail. Your old pass becomes invalid once the new one is created and mailed to you, therefore the CM was doing his job.

Then I want my $14.98 back ($389 divided by 365 days times 14 days of gray area):rolleyes::eyeroll:

We had a front gate issue on the last day of our trip at closing time. The CM stated policy (fine), called DH he went to City Hall. I calmly asked for a lead. Gate CM sent for a lead, I could hear her actually explaining the situation in my favor, the lead fixed the situation. In the meantime DH is still in city hall with them giving him rank and file he had asked for a lead also.. Another situation where we weren't trying to cheat, we were even trying to spend more money, but the CMs (leads) need more latitude to fix legitimate problems.