PAP Renewal "Black Hole"

[jrsharp21]

Or they could simply let the old card work till its expiration date, and then the new card would take over. In the case of the OP, his old card would continue to work till 7/17, at which time he'd start to use his new card. Why does it have to be any more complicated than that?

And you possibly have the dishonest people who would give their old AP to a friend who may be able to pass as that person.

[DVCmom]

I was not aware of this. Might keep us from using the on-line service if close to a vacation.

[danyoung]

And you possibly have the dishonest people who would give their old AP to a friend who may be able to pass as that person.

This is something that you can do any time with any AP. It wouldn't change at all if you had two passes but only one of them was currently active.

[Bytebear]

I suppose they could keep both the old and new pass active, but whichever is used first that day is accepted, and the second pass would then be rejected. This would prevent people from trying to crack the sytem.

[ssmatik]

If they do an over ride are you still able to use FP?

[Tinkermommy]

That's a good question. I remarked to my daughter that we probably couldn't, but I meant to test it. I forgot.

[Promo-Man]

If they do an over ride are you still able to use FP?

Yes you can

[Autopia Guy]

Part of this, too, is that you are issued a new Passholder ID every year. Why? why not use the same ID - like a credit or debit account (or frequent flier account) and then that data can be mined for all sorts of additional benefits?

Actually, you have the same Passholder "ID Number" every year...


Or they could simply let the old card work till its expiration date, and then the new card would take over. In the case of the OP, his old card would continue to work till 7/17, at which time he'd start to use his new card. Why does it have to be any more complicated than that?

But then there is also the benefit of those guests who renew from, say, a SoCal to a Premium. Their old pass is immediately deactivated and they now have a Premium AP in the system. Now if they do this at the parks, they can then take that card to the gate and have full access of a Premium. Or would you prefer them to have to wait until their current pass is expired to have the access?

Technically, they would be getting the same Premium that is valid for 13 months on the renewal price that anyone else renewing is. It just so happens that some people who are renewing their APs already are at a Premium while others are not.


I think you folks would be very surprised at how complex (and very powerful) the ticketing and admission system at Disneyland is. However, because there are through the mail passes done and all, these problems do arise at times. And more often then one might think. I do feel sorry for the way the OPs situation was handled though. That situation is not your fault and they should not have made it count as your one time per year.

[danyoung]

Now if they do this at the parks, they can then take that card to the gate and have full access of a Premium. Or would you prefer them to have to wait until their current pass is expired to have the access?

To be honest, I think it would make more sense and be easier to administer if your current pass would continue to work right up till its expiration date. And then your new pass (whatever level it's at) would start working the next day. Simple, easy to understand, no one gets any extra benefits but no one gets cheated either.

[olegc]

Actually, you have the same Passholder "ID Number" every year....

well, if I understand that in the system there might be a unique identifier where they can find me when I go to Passholder Central - but it's only use is to turn over to the next card. On the back of the card there is a new ID number (the full number) and I have to go in to the website and re-enter the number in order to get the emails, etc. - otherwise it says I have an expired pass.

so if there is a unique ID - why the heck is it not used all the time for all sorts of stuff - like continuing my access to the park as well as the web site updates. I appreciate the fact that it might be complex- but isn't customer service the #1 goal - not maintaining the complex system?


To be honest, I think it would make more sense and be easier to administer if your current pass would continue to work right up till its expiration date. And then your new pass (whatever level it's at) would start working the next day. Simple, easy to understand, no one gets any extra benefits but no one gets cheated either.

but I see what autopia guy said - if you upgrade, and you have 3 months left on the old pass, do you want to wait three months (and maybe be blocked) or do you want immediate access. What AutopiaGuys idea does not reference is the mail-in -which still causes people grief with that dead zone (again, yes, the system is complex but it is not good customer service- and it's not my problem if the system is complex).

[Malcon10t]

well, if I understand that in the system there might be a unique identifier where they can find me when I go to Passholder Central - but it's only use is to turn over to the next card. On the back of the card there is a new ID number (the full number) and I have to go in to the website and re-enter the number in order to get the emails, etc. - otherwise it says I have an expired pass.
That is interesting. I have NEVER had to reenter my AP in the system, and it knows when I am up for renewal. I will have to double check the number when I get my new pass next week...

[Bytebear]

To be honest, I think it would make more sense and be easier to administer if your current pass would continue to work right up till its expiration date. And then your new pass (whatever level it's at) would start working the next day. Simple, easy to understand, no one gets any extra benefits but no one gets cheated either.

Brilliant idea.

[Tinkermommy]

I just logged into my AP account, and it did indeed still have last year's barcode number (which is different from this year's).

I actually had to update it in two places. I updated it in the Update Passholder Account. When I clicked on Update Disneyland.com Account, it still showed the old number, so I updated it there as well.

I'm not sure what the importance of updating the number is. I didn't even know to do this until last year, when somebody here mentioned updating it in relation to an AP lottery thing, for Midway Mania, I believe.

Autopia Guy, thanks for the kind words. I didn't end up using my courtesy pass. I was unwilling to do that since I had a pass paid through 7/17 in my hand (as well as a receipt showing I've already paid another $738 through 7/17/2010), so I took my chances at the gate. The gate CMs were very reluctant to do the override, but eventually did. Fortunately, it was a weekday and there were no lines at the gate, so there was nobody behind us to be inconvenienced by the delay.

I absolutely understand their reluctance, now that it's been pointed out that some AP holders are defaulting on their payments. (That doesn't explain the attitude of the guy at Guest Services, who made me feel that the situation was my fault for not renewing in the park; never mind the online renewal benefits :eyeroll: but that's another issue.)

Anyway, now that I know this, I think what they need is just some way to determine, when the boing boings, if someone is trapped in the renewal black hole, or if they've defaulted on their payments. I know it's just a couple days, but clearly it does happen. When it does, they need a more guest-friendly way to handle it.

[danyoung]

...if you upgrade, and you have 3 months left on the old pass, do you want to wait three months (and maybe be blocked) or do you want immediate access.

Under the Dan Young Plan (hey, that has a ring to it!), there would be no renewing 3 months early. Your pass would be for an entire year, and then your new pass would start. Of course, if you decided half way through your year that you didn't want the basic pass but wanted to upgrade to the next level, you could easily do that for a pro-rated amount for the remaining time. But your expiration would still come 6 months later, same as it was before. Go ahead and renew early, but your new pass won't go into effect until the current one expires.

[haypark mom]

It's too bad that there's no magical system of some sort, like a machine of some sort, that could keep track of all these numbers and be able to tell the machines at the gates that it's ok to let you into the park until your pass expires. And then this same magical machine could tell the gate machines when a month-to-month AP has defaulted. If only someone could make something like that.

Adrienne

This is hilarious!!!! Love it!!:)

[AVP]

I have to go in to the website and re-enter the number in order to get the emails, etc. - otherwise it says I have an expired pass.Didn't you say in another thread that you don't renew your pass, you get a new one each year? If that's the case, then you would get a new number each time.

I had an odd experience a few weeks ago - the CM at the M&F parking structure couldn't get the system to accept my AP for free parking. She said it showed my valid-through-12/31/09 pass as "expired," and asked if my pass was on monthly payment plan. She seemed to think that I was late in my payments. It took a few moments and a call to a lead to get me past the toll booth (holding up everyone in line behind me - sorry, folks!), but I didn't have any problems once I got to the park main entrance.

Perhaps the APs that are paid in full should be marked with a code of some form?

AVP

[Second Star]

Before I just jump in here, would anybody like the perspective of a programmer, both database and website? :D

[olegc]

Didn't you say in another thread that you don't renew your pass, you get a new one each year? If that's the case, then you would get a new number each time.
AVP

i said for this year I had to - they forced me because the pass was bought for me in july and I used it this past march - after the price increase (so they would not let me use it for renewal, I had to come back). They said since it was a different price I could not use it for renewal. This at least IMHO negates the idea of buying a voucher in advance if you plan on renewing, saving some money and getting a gift card. That was another issue.

all other previous years the number on the card was different - even after renewal.


Before I just jump in here, would anybody like the perspective of a programmer, both database and website? :D

IMHO the issue is not programming (actually writing the code and creating the fields and relations in the database, setting up the network connections, etc.). Obviously those can be done. It's not a tech issue - in reality it's a business process issue and Disney management deciding what data they do, and don't, want to use for managing payments and passes.

[Second Star]

IMHO the issue is not programming (actually writing the code and creating the fields and relations in the database, setting up the network connections, etc.). Obviously those can be done. It's not a tech issue - in reality it's a business process issue and Disney management deciding what data they do, and don't, want to use for managing payments and passes.

It not really just that easy, but, okay I'll but out. :cool:

[Malcon10t]

It not really just that easy, but, okay I'll but out. :cool:;) Yep, I can relate. But *I* would like to hear your thoughts. But then I was a programmer/systems analyst for many years before I headed out to the farm.

[Second Star]

;) Yep, I can relate. But *I* would like to hear your thoughts. But then I was a programmer/systems analyst for many years before I headed out to the farm.

For you Mal, sure. :D

First, I don't know anything about Disney's systems in particular, and yes, any of the suggestion made here could be implemented with the right time and resources, but...

My little company (even by comparison to the Disneyland Resort alone) produces about a million different database transactions (records) a day. I would venture a guess that number to be easily 100 fold for DLR. And every one of those transactions is compete with transactions from other subsystems. So while processing power and data storage have increased almost exponentially in recent years, the I/O busses (input/output lines for those not as technically inclined) while improving have not grown as quickly. So the issue is not just how to effectively process a transaction, but also how to replicate it (moving it) to each required subsystems.

So now the programmer. He or she is spending the majority of his or her time coding to whatever spec was provided for a particular system or subsystem. They have little time to address all the whatifs that were not included in the initial spec.

Now there is testing, testing, and more testing. And I guarantee you, there will still bugs. And that is just for the current spec.

Corporate Managers - most do not have a clue what their IT infrastructure is actually capable of, or how easily it can be brought to a screeching halter by a poorly tested or implemented change. When the development process starts (remember those initial specs), the process is laid out and the thought on how to develop it begins. While there is some "would it be nice if" that goes on, I have never been involved in a development effort that well into the design process somebody doesn't say, "hey what about this?" At that point decisions need to made as to whether is can be reasonably incorporated into the current design or held for a future rev (revision).

I heard someone say something about customer service - well I would bet people would be really ticked if after every couple dozen of tickets that went through the turnstiles, one of the rides shutdown or frozen for a moment because one of the ticket trans infered or caused a buffer overflow. Do forget all of those other transactions that are competing for network cycles.

You can laugh, but I have seen things like this happen.

If we waited for the perfect process, system, or application to come to market, we'd still be writing checks on stone tablets. :rolleyes: We built it with the best information available at the time, and improve it as that data and technology gets better.

I could go on, but, I don't want to see anyone here go into buffer overflow. It unpleasant when a computer does it, it can be downright ugly when it happens to the human brain. :eek: :D

Anyway, I am willing to bet money that Disney Management and IT have heard your concerns, and are working on way to addres them. But it takes time.

Just as a little side note - there are over 60 million lines of code that lets Window XP run your desktop computer (well except you Mac users, I'm not sure the line count on OSX), that just the operating system, that doesn't include all the apps.

So there my little programming 101 class

Oh yeah, and there are only 01 kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary, and those who don't. ;)

[olegc]

For you Mal, sure. :D

First, I don't know anything about Disney's systems in particular, and yes, any of the suggestion made here could be implemented with the right time and resources, but...

My little company (even by comparison to the Disneyland Resort alone) produces about a million different database transactions (records) a day. I would venture a guess that number to be easily 100 fold for DLR. And every one of those transactions is compete with transactions from other subsystems. So while processing power and data storage have increased almost exponentially in recent years, the I/O busses (input/output lines for those not as technically inclined) while improving have not grown as quickly. So the issue is not just how to effectively process a transaction, but also how to replicate it (moving it) to each required subsystems.

So now the programmer. He or she is spending the majority of his or her time coding to whatever spec was provided for a particular system or subsystem. They have little time to address all the whatifs that were not included in the initial spec.

Now there is testing, testing, and more testing. And I guarantee you, there will still bugs. And that is just for the current spec.

Corporate Managers - most do not have a clue what their IT infrastructure is actually capable of, or how easily it can be brought to a screeching halter by a poorly tested or implemented change. When the development process starts (remember those initial specs), the process is laid out and the thought on how to develop it begins. While there is some "would it be nice if" that goes on, I have never been involved in a development effort that well into the design process somebody doesn't say, "hey what about this?" At that point decisions need to made as to whether is can be reasonably incorporated into the current design or held for a future rev (revision).

I heard someone say something about customer service - well I would bet people would be really ticked if after every couple dozen of tickets that went through the turnstiles, one of the rides shutdown or frozen for a moment because one of the ticket trans infered or caused a buffer overflow. Do forget all of those other transactions that are competing for network cycles.

You can laugh, but I have seen things like this happen.

If we waited for the perfect process, system, or application to come to market, we'd still be writing checks on stone tablets. :rolleyes: We built it with the best information available at the time, and improve it as that data and technology gets better.

I could go on, but, I don't want to see anyone here go into buffer overflow. It unpleasant when a computer does it, it can be downright ugly when it happens to the human brain. :eek: :D

Anyway, I am willing to bet money that Disney Management and IT have heard your concerns, and are working on way to addres them. But it takes time.

Just as a little side note - there are over 60 million lines of code that lets Window XP run your desktop computer (well except you Mac users, I'm not sure the line count on OSX), that just the operating system, that doesn't include all the apps.

So there my little programming 101 class

Oh yeah, and there are only 01 kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary, and those who don't. ;)

I am glad to see this too - but there are ways to mitigate this as well. it does not have to be one program. componentize the application into smaller more manageable chunks. Run it with pods so as to allow for increases in demand. Segment the network so that ticket transactions do not appear on the same network segment as ride statistics and information. many times a programmer thinks they know what the manager or end user wants and that assumption is not correct. and I don't think it was to be inferred that we had to wait for the perfect code. The waterfall method of coding went out a while ago as not being very efficient. Iterative and smaller runs are better to add features, make changes, and react (or be proactive) to a businesses needs in order to keep things flowing.

this by no means is a knock on any part of this discussion. I am simply trying to state that for every reason why it's hard - there is a counterpoint on how to solve it - or at it's base why it's the right thing to do. I have oversimplified this as well - and I can't speculate as to how complex the Disney system may be or if you could at all modify anything or start from scratch. All we know is that the customers of the service don't believe they are being served correctly - and it should be up to the business to correct it - complex, simple, or outright butt-busting as it may be..

[AVP]

Oh yeah, and there are only 01 kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary, and those who don't. ;)What those of us who don't "understand" binary but have heard the joke before? Are we a 11rd type?

AVP

[Second Star]

What those of us who don't "understand" binary but have heard the joke before? Are we a 11rd type?

AVP

Ah, but you do understand. ;)

And, olegc, I will add one more factor to my comments - legacy systems.

While there are indeed better programming technique, integrating with these systems is a challenge, and generally wind up requiring a what we call at our place a nuke and pave approach. While it may be more economically feasible in the long run, I have rarely seen an environment where it is really operationally possible, and it is very costly.

And when you are looking at ROI, I'm betting the ROI on a ride refurb is a lot higher than on an improvement to the AP system. Bottom line priorities also factor in to these decisions too.

I am an AP holder too, so I do understand your frustration, but are you going to forgo you AP or going to Disneyland because of these issues?

Customer service can always be better, but, if your answer is no, I would say that customer service in this instance is adequate to the task.

[danyoung]

Second Star, I enjoyed your explanation, but I have to take on your joke. It's supposed to be only 10 types of people - those who understand binary, and those who don't (10 being the binary equivalent of 2 decimal). That way, it's funny!