Star Trek - WARNING: SPOILERS

[mom22gls]

It took me a while to realize this too. I think their relationship as a whole is technically inappropriate which is why they kept it quiet. It's inappropriate for them to hook up when he's her instructor, which is probably part of why he didn't assign her to the Enterprise at first. And by the end when he's her superior officer, it's way inappropriate. I don't know if that will be dealt with in a future movie or not.

The more I think about it, the more odd things I think of. They really weren't all that quiet about it-they were practically making out in front of Kirk, and one would think there were security cameras all over the ship, except, perhaps in people's private quarters. Also, because they are military, one would also think that gorgeous flow of extensions (uh, hair), on Uhura's head would be against a dress code-pulled up the way it was, it's a nice handle for someone in hand-to-hand combat. And those miniskirts are not exactly practical military uniforms. Also, because Vulcans and humans are so similar, one would also assume that old Vulcan ladies (like the elders) can't reproduce. If he was so worried about carrying on the race and culture, one would think he would try to beam some young healthy Vulcan women up to the ship as well-maybe focus on a military academy where the women are pre-screened for physical and mental fitness, since they were in a hurry. He mentioned that, somehow, around 10,000 survived (I think he said that)-where were they, off-planet?

[Foodie]

The more I think about it, the more odd things I think of. They really weren't all that quiet about it-they were practically making out in front of Kirk, and one would think there were security cameras all over the ship, except, perhaps in people's private quarters. Also, because they are military, one would also think that gorgeous flow of extensions (uh, hair), on Uhura's head would be against a dress code-pulled up the way it was, it's a nice handle for someone in hand-to-hand combat. And those miniskirts are not exactly practical military uniforms. Also, because Vulcans and humans are so similar, one would also assume that old Vulcan ladies (like the elders) can't reproduce. If he was so worried about carrying on the race and culture, one would think he would try to beam some young healthy Vulcan women up to the ship as well-maybe focus on a military academy where the women are pre-screened for physical and mental fitness, since they were in a hurry. He mentioned that, somehow, around 10,000 survived (I think he said that)-where were they, off-planet?

Well they definitely had to balance the true-to-life military culture with what the tv show had already established as the way they are. The show had women in tight mini skirts, so the movie did it as a nod to the show. I can live with that. I do think they need to address the relationship issue as it can be a real problem for them down the road.

As for the Vulcan elders, I had that exact discussion with my friend and she said the elders were mainly for the cultural preservation. I believe the 10,000 were probably a mix of people beamed up onto other ships just in time and people off-world on ships of their own or visiting other planets. I don't know much about the needs of repopulating an entire people, but I would imagine that 10,000 people, depending on the age and gender ratio, might be able to survive, if all the women have as many children as they possibly can during their child-bearing years. And I'd imagine they'd have to figure out if it's best for it to be a "mating for life" situation or if you have them take a different person each time for a higher genetic variation or whatever. Of course that's the sort of unpleasant details nobody really deals with in movies, it'll be glossed over.

[Alex S.]

I do think they need to address the relationship issue as it can be a real problem for them down the road.

Using aired episodes as canon this apparently isn't a problem.

In "Balance of Terror" (I watched it the other day to check out something about how the original Romulans were treated in the original series) Kirk performs a wedding between two of his crew. So fraternization is certainly allowed. It is established in another scene that the man is the woman's superior officer (not only higher rank but she reports to him) so fraternization of the type between Uhura and Spock would appear to be ok.

(Though the altnerate timeline means Abrams can do whatever he wants and just say "well, things are different.")


I believe the 10,000 were probably a mix of people beamed up onto other ships just in time and people off-world on ships of their own or visiting other planets.

Except that it was established that all the other ships were destroyed as they arrived. The Enterprise only survived because of Sulu's driving error that delayed them. So they showed up and had enough undivided attention that Nero determined young Spock was aboard.

Though a later scene did show other Vulcans on board the Enterprise without explaining how they got there (since the transporter was apparently pretty busy with getting Spock and company back on board.

Easy enough to believe that at least 10,000 Vulcans were off planet at the time (even if none were on the remote isolated outpost of Hoth, Vulcan's moon).


I don't know much about the needs of repopulating an entire people, but I would imagine that 10,000 people, depending on the age and gender ratio, might be able to survive, if all the women have as many children as they possibly can during their child-bearing years.

10,000 should be way more than enough genetic diversity to keep the race going, and reproductive age need not play a role. The science is practically well along enough in our current world to deal with the obstacles, I don't think it would be a problem for them to use artificial methods for reproduction if they so wanted.

Considering the genetic manipulation that would be needed to actually allow reproduction between a Vulcan and a human (in the real world that would be more difficult than achieving reproduction between a human and a cow), it should definitely be easy.

[cstephens]

Except that it was established that all the other ships were destroyed as they arrived.

But I think those were only the Federation ships that left the space dock at the same time as Enterprise, which meant it was only Earth ships. Given the reception to Spock's news that he was joining Starfleet instead of the Vulcan Academy, I would think there wouldn't be many Vulcans in Starfleet at that time, and certainly not streaming out of the Starfleet Academy in San Francisco. In the original story at least, I recall there being Vulcan science ships exploring and such, so if that still holds true, I presume there would be lots of other ships out there with Vulcans on them. I don't think they mentioned anything about Vulcans being on Starfleet ships.

Plus, there were a boatload of other ships at that other place that I can't remember where they were going to rendezvous, so we don't know the Vulcan contingent there.

[Alex S.]

But I think those were only the Federation ships that left the space dock at the same time as Enterprise, which meant it was only Earth ships.

Why would Nero have not destroyed any other ships arriving or already there as well. Of course, it is one of the story stupidities that when Vulcan asks for help from Earth they report not "giant ship has arrived and is blasting some big beam into our planet" but rather "Vulcan is experience seismic activity so please send all your ships in here blind unaware that a malignant foe is at work."

I agree that Spock would be one of few (or only depending on which version of canon you want) actually in Starfleet, but Vulcan is a major member of the Federation so one would assume they'd have a huge contingent in place at Federation HQ on Earth (plus, presumably plenty of embassies on other planets) and any exploration they're doing on their own.

[cstephens]

Why would Nero have not destroyed any other ships arriving or already there as well.

We don't know what was already there, but again, I'm remembering that they interrupted Kirk's court martial or whatever proceeding to announce that Vulcan had asked for help, most of the Federation forces were already otherwise engaged in some other place, which is why all of them, including cadets, needed to jump on a ship and head to Vulcan, because no one else was available. Stupid or not, that's what I remember happening, and I don't recall any mention of other ships answering the distress call. When the Enterprise finally got on their way, and then Kirk was trying to stop them, they tried to hail the ships that had already arrived, with no response. They didn't mention trying to hail any other ships.

[arnoldvb]

If he was so worried about carrying on the race and culture, one would think he would try to beam some young healthy Vulcan women up to the ship as well-maybe focus on a military academy where the women are pre-screened for physical and mental fitness, since they were in a hurry. He mentioned that, somehow, around 10,000 survived (I think he said that)-where were they, off-planet?

I don't know how it would work in terms of repopulating the species, but in canonical Star Trek, Vulcans only mate once every 7 years. But in this reboot universe, they may not hold to that limitation in the storytelling.

[candles71]

Considering the genetic manipulation that would be needed to actually allow reproduction between a Vulcan and a human (in the real world that would be more difficult than achieving reproduction between a human and a cow), it should definitely be easy.
Um:confused:, Alex I'm not following since we already have reproduction between a Vulcan and a human (ie Spock)

[underthesea1987]

If you go watch it on IMAX you can see a saliva trail between Spock and Ahoura.

[Alex S.]

Um:confused:, Alex I'm not following since we already have reproduction between a Vulcan and a human (ie Spock)

That's the reproduction I'm talking about. It is never explained in canon (that I recall anyway) how exactly such a biologically impossible feat was accomplished but natural reproduction would be quite impossible. Like I said, easier to mate a human and a cow than a human and a Vulcan (in reality, movies don't necessarily bow to reality).

[JeffG]

That's the reproduction I'm talking about. It is never explained in canon (that I recall anyway) how exactly such a biologically impossible feat was accomplished but natural reproduction would be quite impossible. Like I said, easier to mate a human and a cow than a human and a Vulcan (in reality, movies don't necessarily bow to reality).

What are you basing that on? Vulcans are fictional, so there is really no scientific basis at all for knowing whether or not they would be biologically compatible with humans. Sure, you can certainly make a case that it is scientifically very improbable that any extra-terrestrial life-form would be sufficiently close to humans to be able to interbreed, but even that is still speculative since there are currently no known examples of extra-terrestrial life.

It just seems strange to be claiming a scientific impossibility when dealing with something that is purely in the fantasy realm at this point.

-Jeff

[Alex S.]

Not really, even very slight genetic deviation prevents most closely related species evolved here on Earth from reproducing. The odds of independently evolved life on another planet (especially if that evolution is divergent enough that they don't even oxidize the same element in their blood) being reproductively compatible is essentially zero.

Yes, as pure fantasy it can't be ruled out but Star Trek does generally try to be something that more than pure fantasy. In pure fantasy, Kirk could fart unicorns.

That said, TNG did introduce the idea of panspermia providing a common origin to the humanoid species in the galaxy (though this leaves the big hole that humans are quite obviously from the same genetic source as all other known life on this planet and that Federation scientists would have noticed the common DNA to all humanoid species).

But yes, if we finally find extraterrestrial life and it turns out they're actually human then reproduction might be possible.

[arnoldvb]

Not really, even very slight genetic deviation prevents most closely related species evolved here on Earth from reproducing. The odds of independently evolved life on another planet (especially if that evolution is divergent enough that they don't even oxidize the same element in their blood) being reproductively compatible is essentially zero.

I understand where Alex was coming from in his original statement several posts back. Remember that according to Trek canon, Spock's blood is copper based, while human blood is iron based -- as is that of cows. That alone would support the idea of cows and humans being more genetically compatible than Vulcans and humans. The interspecies incompatibilities certainly didn't inhibit Kirk's interest in the extraterrestrial ladies, however. Nor did it hinder Riker on TNG or even Rom (Quark's brother) and Lyta (the Bajoran Dabo girl he married) on DS9 -- or Worf and Dax. Feasible or not, interspecies couplings were very common in Star Trek.

I don't buy the Spock-Uhura relationship in the new Star Trek movie simply on the basis of it being very out of character for both characters based on what we know of them in the canon. But this is now an alternate reality, so it'll be interesting to see where Abrams takes the relationship in future films.

[cstephens]

I don't buy the Spock-Uhura relationship in the new Star Trek movie simply on the basis of it being very out of character for both characters based on what we know of them in the canon.

But almost all of what we know about them from original canon is also much after the time period of the movie. We didn't know them when they were that young.

[Ohthatjeff]

Finally saw Lens Flare: The Movie Star Trek on Thursday. I'm not a big fan of reboots and remakes (let's call it like it is), but I enjoyed this one. I kept thinking through the movie that they could have actually set this in the regular Star Trek universe, put in the TNG timeline and it would have worked just fine (slight story editing aside). Urban absolutely nailed it.

The only major problem I had with the film is that in the original series, the character ages are established and there's now way that they're all in the academy at the same time.


Still couldn't find R2 though. Looked, and looked hard. Nothing.

I believe I saw him in the scene where they first meet Scotty. There's a collection of canisters on the right side of the screen when they first show the transporter unit in the middle of the room. His head is visible amongst the canisters.

[Foodie]

I understand where Alex was coming from in his original statement several posts back. Remember that according to Trek canon, Spock's blood is copper based, while human blood is iron based -- as is that of cows. That alone would support the idea of cows and humans being more genetically compatible than Vulcans and humans. The interspecies incompatibilities certainly didn't inhibit Kirk's interest in the extraterrestrial ladies, however. Nor did it hinder Riker on TNG or even Rom (Quark's brother) and Lyta (the Bajoran Dabo girl he married) on DS9 -- or Worf and Dax. Feasible or not, interspecies couplings were very common in Star Trek.

I think this is where the "fiction" part of "science fiction" comes in. I think they try to remain as scientifically feasible as possible, but there are some ideas that are just too good from a story-telling point of view to not use. Interracial/interspecies relationships makes for good and interesting stories, so they use it, even if it's not physically or biologically possible.

[Alex S.]

Yes, I agree. They can do whatever they want and hybridization is rampant throughout Star Trek canon.

And that was kind of the original point in which I brought it up. Just an aside that Federation genetics are obviously advanced enough that a small Vulcan gene pool would not pose a problem for them if they wanted to address it (and 10,000 is plenty and they'd just ignore it anyway). Science always takes a backseat to story, and if the story is good enough that is fine.

It is only when the story sucks that the stupid science becomes a distraction.