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yohomama212
07-31-2008, 04:02 PM
As an aside to a few comments back, some cops will ticket you going 66. It has more to do with your attitude when the cop stops you than anything else. Trust me. I am not a beat cop, but I know plenty of them and work with them everyday. Your attitude can determine your outcome, and yes ladies, crying helps.

Unless it's another lady that pulls you over and you can't believe tonight of all nights is the night you get your first ticket and you're shaking and crying. She was heartless!


I am good with honesty, but I really do think Disney is ok with you fudging a few months, and although kids are perceptive, I think they are pretty oblivious to the whole thing, and in fac, I think few CMs would even question the age of a kid who looks 2 and 11 months.

Given the choice of not buying any tickets at all, and having to buy a child ticket (in addition to two adults, and possibly several other child tickets), I think Disney would rather you come into the park with a free kid than not come at all. after all, that kid does have to have at least one adult paying to get in.

That's exactly when we got questioned about DD's age. She knew she was still 2, I knew she was still 2, but the CMs were barely convinced!

Elizabeth

Jim Dear and Darling
07-31-2008, 04:44 PM
It's all a package deal. I frequently quote Into The Woods:

Careful the things you say,
Children will listen.


BRAVO!!! So True. (I played the witch in Into the Woods in Highschool) ;)

wwithers
07-31-2008, 07:23 PM
And yes, they may see me driving above the speed limit, but from a car seat at the back of the Mommymobile, it's not real to them.

So are you going to continue to drive over the speed limit once your kids understand what speeding is? Is it okay to "sneak" into DL if your kid's attention is directed elsewhere and they don't KNOW that you are lying about their age?

You seem to be saying that honesty is only important (where kids are concerned) when kids are aware of it.

Malcon10t
07-31-2008, 07:54 PM
So are you going to continue to drive over the speed limit once your kids understand what speeding is? Is it okay to "sneak" into DL if your kid's attention is directed elsewhere and they don't KNOW that you are lying about their age?

You seem to be saying that honesty is only important (where kids are concerned) when kids are aware of it.I think there is a big difference between speeding and defrauding a company. It is also different if I am speeding, I get pulled over and teh officer asks "Do you know how fast you were going?" and I lie and say "No", or "I was going 65 sir" when in fact I was going 75.

wwithers
07-31-2008, 08:14 PM
I think there is a big difference between speeding and defrauding a company.

If you are going to put it in those terms, it is breaking the law vs defrauding a company.

Not to mention that you seem to imply that it's okay to lie to get off of the hook for breaking the law but it's not okay to lie to break the rules of a private company?


Degrees. Nothing more, nothing less.

(And in these specific examples, I would argue it's not even degrees. I mean, it's okay to break the law but not okay to defraud a company?)

Kristina27
07-31-2008, 08:34 PM
Walking into Disneyland without a paid ticket is just like taking an item out of the store without paying for it, it is stealing. You are taking something that is not yours to have. Hopefully, you would not teach your child to stick an item into their bag in the souvenir shop just because you did not want to pay for it. Yes, maybe they would get away with it but what have you taught them in the end. Unfortunately, too many people feel that honesty is not neccessary and that is reflected in our society as a whole.

Malcon10t
07-31-2008, 08:53 PM
If you are going to put it in those terms, it is breaking the law vs defrauding a company.

Not to mention that you seem to imply that it's okay to lie to get off of the hook for breaking the law but it's not okay to lie to break the rules of a private company?


Degrees. Nothing more, nothing less.

(And in these specific examples, I would argue it's not even degrees. I mean, it's okay to break the law but not okay to defraud a company?)WHOA... No, what I meant in my description is it is one thing if I speed and say "I made a mistake and I was breaking the law", whereas it is not okay for me to lie about it. However, I do see a difference between speeding and accepting the consequences, and lying to get my child into Disneyland, a movie, etc...

Malcon10t
07-31-2008, 08:54 PM
Walking into Disneyland without a paid ticket is just like taking an item out of the store without paying for it, it is stealing. You are taking something that is not yours to have. Hopefully, you would not teach your child to stick an item into their bag in the souvenir shop just because you did not want to pay for it. Yes, maybe they would get away with it but what have you taught them in the end. Unfortunately, too many people feel that honesty is not neccessary and that is reflected in our society as a whole.Very well said. Thank you very much.

DisneyMamaof2
07-31-2008, 10:19 PM
Well, it seems like this thread has kind of gotten out of hand. Wasn't the original question about how much DLR pays attention to the age of a child. We all know that people are people whether they are right or wrong. We all have the freedom to do what we choose. I don't think that any of us have lived "perfect" lives nor do I believe that there isn't one person here who hasn't done something dishonest in their entire lives. Arguing the morality of it is really neither here nor there.

cstephens
07-31-2008, 10:44 PM
Yep, and that memory has probably led SK to practice a life of crime and deceit as a result. :rolleyes:

Maybe not in this case, maybe not in every case, but it seems ridiculous to me to say that the behaviour is *never* passed along. Children do learn from their parents' behaviour, but obviously, they don't adopt all of their parents' behaviours. My parents have done things I haven't agreed with. But there was a period when I justified stealing and "fudging". I don't do that anymore because I became an adult (and I don't mean just by turning 18 or 21). However, some people never make that break. What they learned is what's ingrained in their head. They never see that lying is wrong.

And again, everyone has to make their own decisions about how they want to behave. Whenever we talk about the "3 year old ticket or no ticket" argument, someone always brings up the speeding argument. It's completely a matter of choice, but I think the objection comes from the people who claim it's not really cheating or stealing not to buy a ticket for their 3 year old, or worse, people who claim that Disney actually condones and encourages doing that.

AVP
07-31-2008, 11:00 PM
That's exactly when we got questioned about DD's age. She knew she was still 2, I knew she was still 2, but the CMs were barely convinced! Isn't that the way it always is? Tony and I have taken at least one of the Krocklings to Disneyland the day before they turned 3. I remember with M the CM did ask us how old he was, and I replied that he was turning 3 tomorrow, which was why we were there that day. I imagine that as far as that CM was concerned I fell into the category of "people with children who suspiciously turn 3 tomorrow," but I knew we were clear and that's what mattered. We made it a point to explain to M that after that day he would need a ticket to go to Disneyland, and he remembered that. I seem to remember a similar trip with S, but we missed the chance to take C.

AVP

Bolivar
07-31-2008, 11:45 PM
If you lie about a child's age to get him into DL free when he is over two are you teaching that child to lie and dooming him to being as dishonest as you apparently are?

No, not by taking him in that one time. But, there went a little chip out of that rock of integrity and being a parent that tells that lie, you are likely to also tell the movie theater that he should have a child's movie ticket not the more expensive one when he is whatever age that changes, oops another chip. Then you get pulled over and tell the cop that you didn't make a left turn back there you were coming the other way, another chip. Pretty soon your sixteen-year-old is telling you, "no I never took that from the store. I paid for it." You reap what you sow.

When it comes to being honest and having integrity there really is no shades of gray. If you want to cheat the system and sneak a three-year-old in, then go ahead, but do not kid yourself or try to rationalize that what you are doing is not dishonest or that it is an ethical thing to do. It isn't and no rationalizing will make it ethical.

wwithers
08-01-2008, 12:32 AM
Whenever we talk about the "3 year old ticket or no ticket" argument, someone always brings up the speeding argument. It's completely a matter of choice, but I think the objection comes from the people who claim it's not really cheating or stealing not to buy a ticket for their 3 year old, or worse, people who claim that Disney actually condones and encourages doing that.

I judge not. Personally, I rank shaving a bit off of a kid's age to get into DL somewhere between eating a couple of grapes prior to paying at the grocery store (thereby shaving .2oz off of what I'm paying) and yes, speeding. One way or another, Disney is getting my dollar. Judge me if you will. I'm comfortable with my morals and what I am (and am not) teaching my daughter. Frankly, one of those things I am teaching her is not to judge others (those damn glass houses and all). I am also teaching her that no one is perfect, even those who would have you believe otherwise.

Then again, I am a heathen.

There is a reason people always bring up speeding with these kind of arguments, it IS breaking the law. It IS "getting away" with something. It IS cheating the system. Yet, people who sit here in judgement or condemn others actions regarding Disney freely admit to speeding (not all, mind you) and then pretend that somehow THAT doesn't teach kids the exact same thing (morally) that flouting the rules at Disney does.

When is it okay to cheat? When exactly is hypocrisy okay? When it is convenient? When our kids aren't looking? When we know we won't get caught or that people will look the other way? To all of those that suggest a vacation should be put off if a child ticket can't be afforded...perhaps you should cancel appointments, dates, meetings, etc. if you are unable to get there without speeding.

I asked Adrienne honestly, is it fine to break the law (by speeding) as long as your kids don't know about it? Where do you draw the line? Why is Disney sacrosanct but state law is not?

Seriously. I'll take a reasonable answer from anyone.

wwithers
08-01-2008, 12:34 AM
And M10t, I apologize for misreading your post. :)

DisneyMamaof2
08-01-2008, 12:58 AM
I have a question for you. Is it the same thing if I go to Hometown Buffet, and pay the correct amount for my 3 year old. Then my 3 year old eats more food than I do. Am I stealing from Hometown Buffet because my DD is a bottomless pit and is only charged $1.25 when she eats close to $6.00 in food? To me, it sounds like the same thing as "sneaking" a 3 year old into DLR a day or so after they turn 3. As stated previously, DLR is going to get their money one way or another. Can my 3 year old read? No. Therefore, she can not read the price boards at DLR to know that she is suppose to be paid for. Does she know the difference between being 2 and being 3? No. Does she understand the benefits/responsibilities that come with the oh so powerful age of 3? No. So how in the world is "sneaking" a child in who has just turned 3 teaching them to be dishonest and a liar?

Was I nervous when I did? Yes I was. Did I know that I should have paid for my DD? Yes. Does she now have her own Premium AP? Yes. Will she continue for the foreseeable future to have a Premium AP? Yes...So as I see it, Disney is getting their money from us, and did not lose anything by me "sneaking" my daughter in the 2 times I did before my own Premium AP expired. Nor have I taught my DD that it is ok to "fudge" a little.

cstephens
08-01-2008, 01:50 AM
Frankly, one of those things I am teaching her is not to judge others (those damn glass houses and all). I am also teaching her that no one is perfect.

Well, I'll admit to not being perfect in that I *do* judge people. If you spend money you don't have and have no remorse for it and blame other people for the state you've gotten yourself into, yeah, I'm going to judge you. If you think that breaking into someone's house is ok because you had a bad childhood and so you're therefore entitled, yeah, I'm going to judge you. But then, I'm mean that way. And no, no one is perfect. But people make choices. I make choices that other people would frown upon and might even consider wrong. I'm ok with that. Everyone has to make their own choices. As far as when is hypocrisy ok? That's a personal decision. Some people think speeding is ok. Some don't. Some people think lying about a child's age is ok to not have to pay money to get into Disneyland. Some don't. I don't know that it makes sense to "justify" it to each other since it's a personal decision. But if someone comes on here and says, "yeah, my kid is 3 but I already spend a lot of money at Disneyland anyway, so I'm already paying them plenty because the rest of my family comes and we pay for food in the park and souvenirs, so I don't think it's a big deal to lie that my kid isn't 3 and doesn't need a ticket", then yeah, people are probably going to comment on that, which is what happens on a discussion board.


Is it the same thing if I go to Hometown Buffet, and pay the correct amount for my 3 year old. Then my 3 year old eats more food than I do. Am I stealing from Hometown Buffet because my DD is a bottomless pit and is only charged $1.25 when she eats close to $6.00 in food?

I'm not understanding the problem. If they charge by the poundage that your child eats, and she really ate 4 pounds of food, but you said she only ate 2, then yeah, that's a lie. But if they say that it costs X amount for a 3 year old to eat, and you pay that, it doesn't matter if the child only has a spoonful of soup or an entire turkey - they charge by age, so how would that be considered stealing? Heck, you usually don't have to pay for children under 3 years old at a buffet, but what if you go the day before the child turns 3 and the child eats like a horse - are you being dishonest? Nope, you're still following the rules.

If you have two adults, an anorexic and an NFL player, going to a buffet together, they're going to pay the same amount to get in. The NFL player is probably going to eat more than the average person, but if it's a buffet, they're entitled - they're not stealing anything.


Can my 3 year old read? No. Therefore, she can not read the price boards at DLR to know that she is suppose to be paid for. Does she know the difference between being 2 and being 3? No.

Lots of kids do know the difference between being 2 and 3 in that parents usually make a big deal of a child's birthday, so when the child turns 3, the parents are probably going to teach the child that he/she is 3 years old. No, the 3 year old probably can't read and doesn't know he/she should have a ticket, but the child will probably understand when mommy or daddy are asked the age of the child, and the mommy or daddy says 2, when the child knows very well that mommy or daddy has been telling them that they're 3.

As I said, everyone makes their own choices, as you did yours. No, I don't think simply sneaking her in twice is going to turn her to a life of crime. But if it's repeated behaviour, then yeah, it's going to have an effect on the child. I've seen kids pick up on things that surprises the heck out of the parents, who have no clue that the child is going to imitate their own behaviour. Umm, yeah, if you swear like a sailor around a child, the child will probably pick up that same language. If you let slip an occasional swear word, then no, the child isn't necessarily going to thrown f-bombs left and right.

adriennek
08-01-2008, 08:17 AM
But, there went a little chip out of that rock of integrity

and

You reap what you sow.

and

When it comes to being honest and having integrity there really is no shades of gray. If you want to cheat the system and sneak a three-year-old in, then go ahead, but do not kid yourself or try to rationalize that what you are doing is not dishonest or that it is an ethical thing to do. It isn't and no rationalizing will make it ethical.

What he said.

Oh and when I got my last speeding ticket and it was in my hand, I THEN told the cop, I want it on the record that I didn't use my husband's volunteer status to try to get out of this ticket. The cop was annoyed at me for not telling him before he wrote it, but it had been spelled out to my husband that he could lose his status if we did and we later found out someone else did.

Did I do it because I think I'm better than other people or because I need a badge of not-heathen? No. I did it because I found out that for me, my life is easier when I accept personal responsibility for my choices. That's not a statement about anyone else. Yes, I'm serious. No, I'm not kidding anyone.

Adrienne

HisKid
08-01-2008, 08:58 AM
If you lie about a child's age to get him into DL free when he is over two are you teaching that child to lie and dooming him to being as dishonest as you apparently are?

No, not by taking him in that one time. But, there went a little chip out of that rock of integrity and being a parent that tells that lie, you are likely to also tell the movie theater that he should have a child's movie ticket not the more expensive one when he is whatever age that changes, oops another chip. Then you get pulled over and tell the cop that you didn't make a left turn back there you were coming the other way, another chip. Pretty soon your sixteen-year-old is telling you, "no I never took that from the store. I paid for it." You reap what you sow.

When it comes to being honest and having integrity there really is no shades of gray. If you want to cheat the system and sneak a three-year-old in, then go ahead, but do not kid yourself or try to rationalize that what you are doing is not dishonest or that it is an ethical thing to do. It isn't and no rationalizing will make it ethical.

Here's the issue for ME (and I am speaking for MYself): When I walk out of a store with something in my pocket (yes this happened just the other week, dd asked me to hold something she was buying, and I was so distracted with my other kids I actually stuck it in my pocket) without paying, and know I have gotten away with it, who knows about it? Assuming I have NO religious beliefs whatsoever (I do, but stripping those from the discussion). Maybe my kids saw, but also very importantly, *I* know. If I don't pay for it, *I* know I have stolen something. So even if it is annoying, I need to go back in and pay for it, or give them back the thing, because each time I choose to do something that I KNOW is flat-out wrong, and I justify it, I am dulling my own conscience. In the future, it becomes easier for me to listen to my own justifications and harder for me to resist them. It is a slippery slope. If I walk out with a pack of gum, does that mean I'm going to rob a bank? Probably not, and that is not the hyperbole that I am sinking to. But eventually I might try to slip something UNDER my purse while I was checking out just "to see if they'd notice" and then if they did, I could be completely "surprised" and pay for it right away, figuring they'd never accuse the mom with 3 kids. Or I might swap the price tags on 2 things in the store so I could get something cheaper. Or I might start to report more expenses than I really had at work, so I could get reimbursed for them. Then maybe at tax time, I could really inflate my donations. Who would know, right?

To get back to the OP question, Disney doesn't always know, although sometimes they will question you, and I guess very occasionally they will ask for proof... but YOU ALWAYS know. To ME PERSONALLY, it isn't worth the cost.

newhdplayer
08-01-2008, 09:16 AM
To get back to the OP question, Disney doesn't always know, although sometimes they will question you, and I guess very occasionally they will ask for proof... but YOU ALWAYS know. To ME PERSONALLY, it isn't worth the cost.

Couldn't have said it better myself...It's decisions we make every day that make up our character. And, I'm far from perfect, but I work on it every day.

If you put most any choice into a simple Black vs. White type of argument, you can usually see what is "right".

Bolivar
08-01-2008, 11:11 AM
I said my piece on the subject and wasn't going to say anything more, but I just can't resist putting in my two cents once more...

In the scheme of things, bringing a just-turned-three-year-old into the park as a two-year-old is not a big deal. We live in a world with wars and torture and thieves, really terrible people. There was Scott Peterson who killed his wife rather than go through a divorce, there are serial killers and rapists and bank robbers. But the thing is, it really is the small things that are the measure of our integrity. I have no trouble not killing my wife when I get annoyed with her. It is when I am in the hardware store and just need to pick up this one screw that costs four cents and the line is ten people deep and I think, "They don't even care about my four cents." that is the measure of my integrity. Do I stand in line to pay my four cents or do I stick the screw in my pocket and walk out?

Think about who you admire as a person of integrity and honor. If you are religious maybe it is Jesus or Mohammad or Mosses. If you are more of a humanist maybe it is Gandhi or Martin Luther King or Desmond Tutu. What if you actually got to meet this person. Now we will make it really exciting, you got to meet this person and go to Disneyland with him. You are with Jesus (or Mohammad or Gandhi) going to Disneyland! He has met your kids and knows their age. Would you lie to sneak your child in? Would you lie in front of Martin Luther King to save a few bucks on a pass to Disneyland? Or how would you feel if this person lied? Would you think the same of Jesus if you just saw him tell a CM that your child was two when you know he is lying to get into Disneyland without paying?

If you would act one way in that situation, why would you act differently without that person there? What does it say about you? Does it say that you care more about appearing to be ethical and a good person than about actually being one? I know that while I will never be a great man like Gandhi or King or Tutu, I would like to strive to be the best I can be and I would like to model myself after them and would love to be compared to them. So why would I compare myself to Scott Peterson by saying, "Well it isn't so bad, it isn't like I was killing someone." I have higher aspirations than to be not as bad the next guy.

HisKid
08-01-2008, 12:30 PM
I have higher aspirations than to be not as bad the next guy.

I think this one sentence is worth a lot more than 2 cents.

Matterhorn Yodeler
08-01-2008, 03:50 PM
I said my piece on the subject and wasn't going to say anything more, but I just can't resist putting in my two cents once more...

Do I stand in line to pay my four cents or do I stick the screw in my pocket and walk out?




I guess you must have stolen the screw, because you had the four cents to spend here!:p

Matterhorn Yodeler
08-01-2008, 04:30 PM
Okay, I stayed away from this thread for a long time...

I started looking at this from Disney's point of view. My question is why would Disney let in a child of any age for free?

It seems that any infant to toddler age child will have a similar impact on the park resources. First, they will not be there alone. Second, they will take up similar space in lines, on rides, at shows, etc. Third, they will not be spending any money for food or souvenirs (but their parents will...oh my!:eek:).

So, my opinion is that Disney is doing this to "help" a family be able to afford and attend their parks. And, if that is the case, they have to draw a line somewhere, so they chose to draw it at under 3 years of age. But this is an arbitrary line, because as numerous posters have pointed out, there is very little difference between your child at 2 years and 364 days of age and 3 years of age.

Now I want to take personal integrity and honesty out of the equation here, and look at it from a corporate marketing point of view...

Disney has determined (likely through detailed research and years of practical experience) that there is an advantage to providing this "free" service. It obviously helps get more paying customers through the turnstiles. It is to their benefit to allow this policy. But aren't they leaving themselves vulnerable to cheating?

Most people follow the "rules" of society. That is why it is not anarchy and chaos in Disneyland when you are sharing the park with 30,000 of your closest friends!:p But a free society tolerates a little flexibility of the rules, so long as it doesn't hurt someone or step on someone else's freedoms.

That is the difference between a free and totalitarian society. In a free society, the cop can pull you over for speeding (breaking the rules), but he can also use his discretion as to whether or not to give you a ticket (flexibility of the rules). If it is late at night, with no traffic in sight, and a relatively safe situation, he can decide if a stern warning will have enough of an impact to maintain the social order. In a totalitarian society, breaking the rules is breaking the rules. No wiggle room whatsoever.

So, back to the topic at hand...Disney allows for this flexibility and empowers its front line personnel (the CM's) to use their discretion in handling the situation. If they feel it is a flagrant violation of the rules, they can call you on it. But they can also choose to let it go.

Hopefully, this is a different way of looking at things...

Okay MP'ers...time to rip me apart...:p

disneyperson
08-01-2008, 05:13 PM
Most people follow the "rules" of society. That is why it is not anarchy and chaos in Disneyland when you are sharing the park with 30,000 of your closest friends!:p
Obviously it's been a while since you've been caught in the after Fantasmic/fireworks stampede. :D

Sorry, couldn't resist. I'm off to refill my popcorn bowl.

cstephens
08-01-2008, 05:14 PM
Obviously it's been a while since you've been caught in the after Fantasmic/fireworks stampede. :D

Tiki Room event merchandising line at Disneyana. ;)