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80S ERA
10-10-2002, 10:06 AM
Now, here's a far-fetched "what if"....

I just came back from Vegas over the weekend and was able to visit some of the landmark resorts on the strip like Bellagio, Paris, Venetian, Caesar's, Mirage, etc. I could not believe the amount of detail present in all of the hotels! No expense was spared. In the Forum shops of Caesars, the blue sky and walkways give the impression that you are shopping outdoors. The other hotels have their nice touches as well. No peeling paint, no closed restaurants, no understaffing. I could only wish the DLR in Anaheim were run like these flagship resorts.

Imagine if Eisner and Co. opened a Vegas casino? They'd probaly come up with an idea like DVA (Disney's Vegas Adventure) or some other lackluster concept. On the flip side, what if Disneyland opened in Vegas with the same revenue these hotels get? We'd probaly see a new E-ticket every year!

Bill Catherall
10-10-2002, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by 80S ERA
We'd probaly see a new E-ticket every year!
And disgusting all-you-can-eat buffets. ;)

Actually, weren't many of the new casino/hotels designed by ex-imagineers?

Iceman
10-10-2002, 11:04 AM
We had a lively discussion about some of these issues on this thread (http://mousepad.mouseplanet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6506&highlight=vegas).

ErikBsandiego
10-10-2002, 11:25 AM
Iceman's link is a great one to a pretty extensive discussion.....

To add just a couple of factoids about Vegas.....

If you are looking to understand what casino's generate in terms of revenue, the average amount lost per room)at the publically owned chains (mgm-mirage, mandalay bay/circus circus, Park place/Ceasers) was around $150 a day. That comes from a recent investors presentation by Mirage. Not a huge amount of money.

Where theming shines in vegas is in the retail. And that is a place where Disney could profit. The forum shops generate highest retail sales per square foot in the country. The rents charged to tenants corresponds.

Kids are a real challenge to vegas operators. Nevada gaming law prohibits them from the casino floor. Thus you reduce the amount of casino play you get if one parent is parenting while the other is watching the kids. One of the biggest reasons why MGM and CC got out of the business was this problem.

THat said, there could be a big market for a time share complex "off strip". There are some VERY impressive theming efforts going on in Summerlin and Lake Las Vegas which I haven't visited yet. If those efforts do well I wouldn't be suprised to see a Disney play - perhaps under a different brand but using the expertise they have in building "themed" hotels.

Kevin Yee
10-10-2002, 12:47 PM
Hm, I missed that original thread, and it seems I was quoted even.

Oh well, all I would have said (and will now say instead) is that Disney already HAS, in a way, built in Vegas. Many of those themed resorts you mention were built in a Disney-inspired style, and moreover, on at least a couple occasions, were designed and built by former Imagineers.

Not to mention the former WDW monorails flying around the city.

It already *is* a Disney city in many respects.

80S ERA
10-10-2002, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by Kevin Yee
....Oh well, all I would have said (and will now say instead) is that Disney already HAS, in a way, built in Vegas. Many of those themed resorts you mention were built in a Disney-inspired style, and moreover, on at least a couple occasions, were designed and built by former Imagineers.

Not to mention the former WDW monorails flying around the city.

It already *is* a Disney city in many respects.

And in many other respects, Vegas has surpassed Disney at what Disney does best.

Vegas shows evidence that it is indeed "former-Disney" inspired. Unfortunately, not even Disney is Disney inspired today. :rolleyes:

Ghoulish Delight
10-10-2002, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by 80S ERA
And in many other respects, Vegas has surpassed Disney at what Disney does best.

Vegas shows evidence that it is indeed "former-Disney" inspired. Unfortunately, not even Disney is Disney inspired today. :rolleyes: The really sad thing...not only do they currently beat Disney at their old game, they even beat them at their new game! Eisner could learn a thing or two about marketing and merchendising from the likes of Steve Wynn and Bob Stupack.

malin
10-10-2002, 02:02 PM
Im from the UK and will be visiting both Disneyland Resort and Las Vegas in November.

I have never understood why Disney have never tried to increase its profile in Vegas.I mean its got a couple of Disney stores and a ESPN Zone.But a Disney Resort in Vegas what a great idea.Just think what there could do.

Live Fantasmic Lagoon shows.

Disney Characters meet and greet including character breakfast.

Casino with cool Disney theming.You could have parts of the casino theme to Disney movies like Peter Pan with a skull Rock.

Maybe a mini Disneyland in the back.

Plus have the guest rooms theme to differn't Disney theme's.

And because its Disney Im sure family's would be happier taking there kids to Vegas.With Disney respectible name.

Ghoulish Delight
10-10-2002, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by malin
Im from the UK and will be visiting both Disneyland Resort and Las Vegas in November.

I have never understood why Disney have never tried to increase its profile in Vegas.I mean its got a couple of Disney stores and a ESPN Zone.But a Disney Resort in Vegas what a great idea.Just think what there could do.

Live Fantasmic Lagoon shows.

Disney Characters meet and greet including character breakfast.

Casino with cool Disney theming.You could have parts of the casino theme to Disney movies like Peter Pan with a skull Rock.

Maybe a mini Disneyland in the back.

Plus have the guest rooms theme to differn't Disney theme's.

And because its Disney Im sure family's would be happier taking there kids to Vegas.With Disney respectible name. Image, image, image. Disney is VERY conscious of its image as a family entertainment company. Gambling, scantily clad showgirls, and raging alcoholism do not particularly fit that image. Certainly it's not an image Walt would have wanted to associate with. And while I doubt the current management has the personal moral issue with this image that Walt would have, they still have to answer to their customer base. And their customer base would probably be mighty unhappy.

And attempting to soley go for the family audience, keeping the casino away, giving a "wholesome" alternative in sin city would fail. It's been proven again and again that there really is only one business model that survives out there. Gambling is king.

hbquikcomjamesl
10-10-2002, 02:35 PM
Gambling is king.Of course it is. That and the other "profession" that's legal in the State of Nevada. Why else would hordes of people want to take vacations in the middle of an especially barren stretch of desert?

malin
10-10-2002, 02:55 PM
And who do the gamblers bring along yes the kids.So Vegas is more of a family destination then ever before.And thats why I can't see a problem with Disney building something in Vegas.

Disneyland is in LA.LA is full of strip clubs,drug dealers and murders.

Paris is full of its share of dodgy things as well.As Im sure Orlando and Tokyo are.

Yet it doesn't hurt Disney family image being built close to these city's.Vegas is a very clean city and a part from the gambling all the strip clubs and other things are way of the strip.So I don't think building a Disney Resort in Vegas will hurt Disney's family image.

disguy
10-10-2002, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by Ghoulish Delight
The really sad thing...not only do they currently beat Disney at their old game, they even beat them at their new game! Eisner could learn a thing or two about marketing and merchendising from the likes of Steve Wynn and Bob Stupack.

I have to disagree with you on this one...Bob Stupack is in no way a great leader. He ran the strat into the ground with so much loss. He was finally booted off the company which is why the strat is doing so much better and finally was able to finish the second tower. Steve Wynn of course is a great leader and I can't wait to see the finish product from the Desert Inn.

Disney has a great store at the Forum shops at Ceasar which is very well themed. I haven't been back in awhile so not sure re did it to look like the rest of the cookie cutter ones out there now.

Ghoulish Delight
10-10-2002, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by malin
And who do the gamblers bring along yes the kids.So Vegas is more of a family destination then ever before.And thats why I can't see a problem with Disney building something in Vegas.

Disneyland is in LA.LA is full of strip clubs,drug dealers and murders.

Paris is full of its share of dodgy things as well.As Im sure Orlando and Tokyo are.

Yet it doesn't hurt Disney family image being built close to these city's.Vegas is a very clean city and a part from the gambling all the strip clubs and other things are way of the strip.So I don't think building a Disney Resort in Vegas will hurt Disney's family image.

Point A: Vegas is NOT more of a family destination than ever. They thought it was. They tried really hard to make it so. They built theme parks. They made bigger arcades, and advertised towards family. It failed miserably. The number of families coming did not increase. They did not get people into the theme parks. They learned that therelatively few families that do come are perfectly happy dumping their kids at Circus Circus to throw some money at stuffed animals (aka, gambling, jr.). Their current advertising campaigns have once again shifted back to their bread and butter. Adult, unatatched people who can pick up, head to Vegas, and dump a ton of money in the casino without having to justify it to their family.

Point B: Yes, LA has violent crime. It happens. But the important distinction is that, as a city, we're against it. We arrest (or attempt to) people involved in such things. Vegas is all for what many people consider mortal sins. Sex, drinking, gambling. The city condones it, profits from it, and buys advertising time across the nation to promote it. "Family values" type people, who are a large chunk of Disney's customers, do not know or care that there is little to no violent crime in Vegas. They only know and care that it is a town that promotes a lifestyle they consider evil and corrupting.

You and I know very well that the seedier strip clubs are off the strip, and that the outright brothels are completely outside of town. But does a family from Missouri planning a wholesome good time know that? No. Again, image. To most of this country who have never set foot in the city, Vegas is distilled sin. Disney does not want to "establish a presence" there.

Ghoulish Delight
10-10-2002, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by disguy
I have to disagree with you on this one...Bob Stupack is in no way a great leader. He ran the strat into the ground with so much loss. He was finally booted off the company which is why the strat is doing so much better and finally was able to finish the second tower. Steve Wynn of course is a great leader and I can't wait to see the finish product from the Desert Inn.

Disney has a great store at the Forum shops at Ceasar which is very well themed. I haven't been back in awhile so not sure re did it to look like the rest of the cookie cutter ones out there now. Yeah, you're right about Stupack. Bad example, not sure what I was thinking. Just a name that jumped into my head at the time.

Iceman
10-10-2002, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by Ghoulish Delight
Gambling, scantily clad showgirls, and raging alcoholism do not particularly fit that image.

First off, I COMPLETELY agree with the things you've said in this thread about Disney's image and how peoples' stereotypical view of Las Vegas prevents them from expanding there. But this line from you sparked a memory, the first time I took my sister to Pleasure Island. We were watching the PI Explosion Dancers doing one of their rather erotic shows in Mannequins and she said to me, "This isn't Walt's Disney, is it?"

Now personally I have no problem with gambling, scantily clad girls and drinking alcohol. If you look at the midway games, explosion dancers, and raw quantity of booze consumed on the Island on any given day you can see that Pleasure Island doesn't either.

So this is a legitimate question: How does Disney get away with these "raunchy" activities right on their property without ruining their precious image?

Ghoulish Delight
10-10-2002, 08:51 PM
Originally posted by Iceman

So this is a legitimate question: How does Disney get away with these "raunchy" activities right on their property without ruining their precious image? I'm not local to the WDW area, so I don't now what ads you see there, but we do see a lot of WDW ads out here. They NEVER advertise the resort hotels. They never go into specifics. They simply advertise Disney. No one's the wiser. Those who want that kind of experience seek it out. A few complain, but there's no national attention. Advertising a park in Las Vegas, however = instant stigma, no way around it.

Brat
10-10-2002, 11:24 PM
Point B: Yes, LA has violent crime. It happens. But the important distinction is that, as a city, we're against it. We arrest (or attempt to) people involved in such things. Vegas is all for what many people consider mortal sins. Sex, drinking, gambling. The city condones it, profits from it, and buys advertising time across the nation to promote it. "Family values" type people, who are a large chunk of Disney's customers, do not know or care that there is little to no violent crime in Vegas. They only know and care that it is a town that promotes a lifestyle they consider evil and corrupting.

I have lived here in Vegas for 20 years, and this sums up my life perfectly. I can't count how many times I've been asked "What casino do you work for?" or "Wow, so you must be a dancer!" (I'm not even 5 feet tall, get real!). I've even been asked "Which hotel do you live in?" When I informed that guy that I lived in a house not a hotel, he responded, "Wow, there are houses in Las Vegas?" I have never worked in a casino, never been a showgirl or topless dancer, (which most people assume) or even seen a brothel (they are very easy to avoid, as they are not even in the same COUNTY). Unfortunately, this is SIN City, and that image will probably never change.

No, I will not hold my breath for a Disney property here any time soon. But, my family and I will continue to enjoy the city and all it offers.

Klutch
10-11-2002, 07:14 PM
To add another factoid on the obscene profits from gambling: years ago I read in one of Donald Trump's books that of the all the Holiday Inn hotels in the world, two had casinos. The two Holiday Inns with casinos made more money than all of the other Holiday Inns in the world combined.

I'm sure Eisner salivates at the prospect of Disney getting into "Gaming". Alas, I agree it would be very bad for the company image.

As for Las Vegas catering to families, I read a lot about that and saw a few TV news stories about it as well. It was a bad experience. Many parents dumped their kids not only at Circus Circus, but at the casino day care centers which were very nice and well-staffed. The awful part was that these day care centers were open until 1 AM and a lot of parents still didn't pick up their kids before closing; some very long after closing. If people want to go to Vegas to drink, gamble, and carry on otherwise, that's their business. However, I don't think it's a place for children (Meaning the strip. I know there are a lot of very nice neighborhoods and public schools in the Vegas suburbs).

Another problem was the last thing traditional Las Vegas visitors wanted was to see a bunch of kids around.

I'm assuming that Disney's cruise ships do not have gambling like other cruise ships. Is this in fact the case?

ErikBsandiego
10-11-2002, 08:03 PM
Re: Klutch -

While "gaming" is a profitable business the margins and ROI are no where near what they once where. The reason is that the capital expense (all that 'theming") put tremendous debt on the company's balance sheet. The debt service for companies like Mandalay Bay and MGM (to a lessor extent Price Place) is really really high.

That isn't to say they are going broke out in the desert - only that modern casino operations are no where near as profitable as they used to be when Vegas was the only place that allowed legalized casino gambling.

Klutch
10-11-2002, 08:22 PM
Hey, good info, ErikBsandiego.

I've have also heard that the numerous gambling towns to blossom recently have taken a chunk from the Vegas cashflow. Maybe this is why Disney didn't persue gaming. Too many other people are doing it now.

There's a tiny mountain town near me, Cripple Creek, where gambling was legalized several years ago. It was a dying mining town. Now it's a booming gambling town. Trouble is, there's no stores, no restaurants (except in casinos), no charm. Everything is a casino. Beautiful Victorian houses that surrounded main street were bulldozed for parking lots. I fear the same thing would happen to Disney if it was to ever offer gambling. Mickey might get chased out of his own house.

:eek:

Marty
10-12-2002, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by Iceman

Now personally I have no problem with gambling, scantily clad girls and drinking alcohol.

Whattaya know, someone who shares my interests. ;)

Here's a thought, lets get rid of that despised California overlay for DCA and turn the place into DLVA (Disney's Las Vegas Adventure). I think everyone is looking for a truly disneyfied version of Sin City.

xsb00st
10-12-2002, 05:52 AM
Originally posted by Klutch
I'm assuming that Disney's cruise ships do not have gambling like other cruise ships. Is this in fact the case?

Actually, A few years back I went on a Disney cruise to the Bahamas, and gambling was on my ship. And with all of us being on international waters, legal age to gamble was 18.

Who wouldn't love to see a Mickey Mouse slot machine? haha.

Morrigoon
10-12-2002, 11:25 AM
Well, personally I wouldn't.

However, I've often thought that the Alice in Wonderland theme would lend itself beautifully to a casino. There's not much fear of compromising the theme, as the drug culture adopted it ages ago. But picture a blacklit casino with machines under mushrooms, a royal rose garden for table (card!) games, and all the other bits and pieces of the film that could be used (a cigar bar sporting a smoking caterpillar?)

My other thought is that the Aladdin has been up for sale for ages. Middle-eastern themes are not exactly popular right now, but Disney has the properties to make it click with the public. A small overlay of what's already there and voila!

malin
10-14-2002, 02:14 PM
I was reading a Wrestling publication earlier today where it had an interview with the former boss of WCW Eric Bishoff.WCW was once the most popular wrestling company in the states including almost putting its competition the WWE out of business.Eric managed to take WCW from a strugling company to profits and revenues of over 1000 percent in just a four year period.One of the things Eric creadits this to was to make a deal with Disney.Which a lot of people criticize the move.The deal was to boardcast some of WCW's live shows out of Disney's MGM Studios park.Now advertisers started to think Disney and Wrestling whats all this about.The sponsores all thought if wrestling alright for Disney maybe we can take a look at it.What Im getting to is maybe Disney can do to Vegas what it did to wrestling and help Vegas improve its family image.A lot of people trust Disney when it comes to family vaule.Vegas could use this to its advantage by bringing in a strong reliable name like Disney to try and loose its reputation of being a sin city.

Morrigoon
10-14-2002, 03:02 PM
Disney needs Vegas more than Vegas needs Disney - Steve Wynn saw to that.